***** D method override mechanisms borked ******

[kris]

Regan Heath wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:27:08 -0700, John Reimer 
> <terminal.node at gmail.com>  wrote:
> 
>> Regan Heath wrote:
>>
>>> Why mention Bruno is a student? What difference does it make?
>>>  I don't know a lot about the issues around overriding protection 
>>> and  would be interested to hear why you think Bruno is wrong in his  
>>> comments because what he has said so far (you've implied he's 
>>> ignoring  some issues, what issues?) makes sense to me.
>>>  I get the impression you're not interested in discussing it, which 
>>> is  fine, can someone else illuminate it for me?
>>>  Regan
>>
>>
>>
>> Kris actually voiced some of the feelings I've been experiencing 
>> about  Bruno's posts.  It's hard to articulate that kind of "feeling." 
>> But for  the most part, I feel he's accurate in his complaint 
>> (although he sounds  a little exasperated).
>>
>> Bruno does come across extremely confident, and while "ego" is a 
>> strong  word,  Bruno has given us very little indication that his 
>> posts are an  expression of anything other than that.  So that leaves 
>> us thinking one  of two things: either he really knows what he's 
>> talking about and likes  bombarding the community with statements of 
>> absolute truth, despite the  fact that nobody really knows why he 
>> thinks he knows (like maybe many  long years of research, experience, 
>> and study?) ; or he's a 21 year old  college kid who is quite bright, 
>> but has a penchant for talking about  what's right and wrong about 
>> everything as if his is the final word on  the matter.
>>
>> Either way, there's no common courtesy or deference to the experience 
>> of    others, many of whom may have a whole lot more years behind them 
>> in  the computer industry. There's no gentle discussion. There's just  
>> strident confidence about how things are with little justification 
>> for  it or evidence as to why. This world is full of gray areas and 
>> full of  systems that try to make an organized approach to 
>> understanding and  working in them, but that doesn't make any one 
>> system perfect.  As time  goes on, we find that out.
>>
>> Regan, It's less about his being a student, which as you say really  
>> makes no difference, and more about how he voices his opinions with 
>> very  little reason for us to know why his word should be law on 
>> matters.  The  student thing comes up because that's about the only 
>> portrait Bruno has  bothered to paint for us (his signature).  And I'm 
>> afraid that portrait  is rather lacking in any substance.
>>
>> Regan, you've been in the same spot as Bruno, I think, and perhaps  
>> empathize with him a little, especially in relation to dealing with 
>> Kris  :).  But you've doggedly persisted through, developed D code,  
>> contributed to the community in significant ways and thus earned that  
>> amount of respect you now deserve.  But there were times when people  
>> were annoyed with your innate ability to start long-winded debates on  
>> things. Some of your opinions came across the same way.
>>
>> When youth speak with so such confidence, it tends to come across as  
>> abrasive, annoying, and egotistical, no matter what the original  
>> intention may be.
>>
>> I'm giving Bruno the benefit of the doubt.  He probably just enjoys 
>> D,  this community, and the language related discussions so much, that 
>> he  has trouble holding back.  That's nice... but there are 
>> consequences to  any action lacking self-control. :)
> 
> 
> I tend to agree with a lot (perhaps all) or what you've said above.
> 
> I do empathise with Bruno, he's obviously confident in his own 
> knowledge  and opinion, as I think many people are. He's also blunt and 
> direct in  expressing that opinion, as I can be. I have been in his 
> position and what  I needed in that position was discussion on the topic 
> to either cement my  ideas/thoughts or to discover new ideas (like those 
> that Kris alluded to  here) which would later change my opinion.

Hey, Regan;

> 
> I've learnt a lot from this newsgroup, despite having 7 odd years of  
> programming experience (which isnt a lot compared to some here I know). 
> I  don't think anyone, regardless of experience, should stop learning, 

so very true


> and  this newsgroup is a very good place to learn.

It certainly is when information is tendered in a genuine manner


> So, all I'm asking is for someone, who knows what Kris was alluding to, 
> to  explain it to me cos I can't see anything wrong (factually) with 
> what  Bruno has said so far. :)

That's because the single point made is not factually incorrect; nor was 
it ever claimed to be. Instead there's a bit of the "Shock & Awe" aspect 
lurking there. Half-truths are often worse than nonsense.

Briefly, that vague example is showing how one can purposely subvert the 
compiler ~ a good way to attach negative connotation to anything.

Unfortunately that is not balanced in any manner by why the approach 
might be useful (not the subversion aspect!), why it might be considered 
more useful than one or several other alternatives, or why (for that 
matter) it was chosen as the model for D.

IMO, one of the hardest things to do in this realm is coming up with a 
good compromise. FWIW, I feel D is an unusually well-considered language 
... Walter's long experience clearly shows up in the good parts, and I 
rather suspect D would be a shadow of itself if the ability to carefully 
balance various compromises was not well-formed. That doesn't always 
work, as we've seen, but it's needed as a foundation. Perhaps you get my 
drift here?

But again, this whole topic is actually about broken functionality and 
what would appear to be quietly changing specs; not the pros and cons of 
one approach over another. That aspect holds little value vis-a-vis the 
original post, so you'll perhaps forgive me if I decline from discussing 
further at this time?

If Walter wishes to open up the topic for input, and chooses to be frank 
about the original design and what his concerns are, that would make for 
interesting material ... we could perhaps all learn a thing or two

Cheers;