Newsgroups & Discussions

[John Reimer]

Reiner,

I pretty much set myself up for the disaster on my last post in the stdio
thread. Dave litterly dissected my innards on that last response, so I'm
missing a lung to breathe and gut to eat at the moment. :) But,
reluctantly, I'll admit I deserved some of it.

But thanks for pointing those things out.  I don't necessarily agree with
all the things here, but I'm satisified to move on simply for lack of
anything more useful to add.  There's more important things to worry
about. I allowed myself to get sucked into something that I really should
not have been a part of.

-JJR


On Sun, 01 Apr 2007 23:26:03 +1000, Reiner Pope wrote:

> Alexander Panek wrote:
>> Please, step back a bit and think twice about what you're going to post, 
>> for the sake of productivity and helping each other. There's no point in 
>> killing each other, verbally, as we're all grown up and shouldn't 
>> actually let ourselves be led by our animal instincts that much.
> 
> It's not right to expect John Reimer and kris to be silent without some 
> kind of resolution.  They have aired grievances with a backing, and it 
> is understandable that these should not simply be silenced for the 
> purpose of 'keeping the NG together.' They have said specifically what 
> about Andrei's online presence they found objectionable, so a general 
> counter to such arguments does not do them credit; the correct way to 
> respond to such points is address each of them individually and 
> specifically. Calling it a dead horse because we do not share these 
> objections is unfair to them, as I see it.
> 
> 
> When I first read the stdio threads, I very much agreed with the JJR's 
> and kris's point of view: Andrei seemed very pushy, seeming to repeat 
> the idea, 'Phobos is now really good at IO, so why isn't Tango.' Andrei 
> raised objection after objection to what Tango did: first speed, then 
> readln discarding the newline; then speed again; then objecting to the 
> call-chained code sample; objecting to Cout(a)(b) in general instead of 
> Cout(a,b); then objecting to C/stdio incompatibility. Taken in context, 
> it is easy to see this as an attack on Tango:
>     1. Andrei talks about Phobos improvements.
>     2. Andrei starts 3 successive threads questioning Tango's 
> collections, and IO
>     3. kris and Sean asked Andrei to submit Tango tickets; Andrei didn't.
>     4. Comparisons between Phobos and Tango ensue; Tango appears to 
> perform better, so Andrei's objections could be taken as 'excuses' for 
> Phobos
> 
> Could.
> 
> This is certainly how I read it at first, so JJR and kris's posts about 
> Andrei seemed spot on. However, on re-reading the stdio threads, with 
> Andrei's posts in particular, his responses seem much more 
> straight-forward: the objections he raises *do* have merit, and he seems 
>   to be trying to help avoid bad design decisions in Tango IO -- a tough 
> critique, but an altruistic one.
> 
> Yes, he does compare Tango with Phobos at times, like in 
> http://www.digitalmars.com/webnews/newsgroups.php?art_group=digitalmars.D&article_id=51365 
> but that can be interpreted as him pointing out how a 'bona fide 
> programmer' would see the choices for D. The comparison is to illustrate 
> the problem, not to flame Tango.
> 
> He even completely admitted a mistake to James Dennet: 'If you did, 
> fine. I take that part of my argument back.'
> 
> 
> So, from the evidence of this alone, Andrei seems not to be following a 
> secret agenda. However, he has (IMHO) made a few mistakes which make his 
> D persona appear very aggressive:
>      1. He, apparently without any evidence, implied that Tango's IO is 
> probably not 'up to snuff' -- an allegation which seems to be completely 
> unjustified.
>      2. He didn't submit tickets for Tango.
> 
> I cannot understand why Andrei did #1 -- I will assume this is just a 
> mistake, and I hope that Andrei acknowledges it as such.
> 
> #2 is very important: submitting tickets turns a Tango bash into a 
> constructive design discussion. However, it is possible to understand 
> Andrei's hesitance: having already pointed out the problem, couldn't 
> kris or Sean simply submit the ticket?
> 
> In future, I hope that Andrei will do as kris and Sean ask and submit a 
> ticket, if just to show good will.
> 
> 
> I hope that kris and JJR could re-read Andrei's posts from the last week 
> or so, supposing that Andrei didn't make the mistakes mentioned above. 
> Hopefully, you will agree that in that light, Andrei seems straight-forward.
> 
> Hope that helps,
> 
> Reiner