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[Dan]

Well said, sir; and fully agreed upon.

However, the religious zealots get all excited and anxious when such things are said, preventing us from discussing D; so exists the age old convention of refraining from bringing up such things in public forum; so continues this mental disorder; so we grieve.

If you bring it up in a more appropriate place, the religious will fight or flee - progressing nothing; while the aware will agree - progressing nothing.  This has always perplexed us, and I'm at a loss for words as to how one might overcome it.

Shall we abandon the topic on these forums?

Sincerely,
Dan

Aziz K. Wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 01:54:44 +0200, Bill Baxter  
> <dnewsgroup at billbaxter.com> wrote:
> > Joke or not, that comment is way out of line.  Go sit in the corner for  
> > an hour and don't post crap like that here ever again.
> >
> > --bb
> 
> 
> Thanks for the rebuke, but no, I'm not going to sit in the corner and  
> reconsider what I said. I understand that from a "the world is full of  
> love and sunshine"-view that little sentence seems to be very  
> inappropriate and hurtful. But as hurtful as it may be to a Muslim, it's  
> unfortunately the truth. If someone accused my father of being a rapist,  
> of course I would be extremely upset and feel angry about that insult. But  
> if all the historical evidence is incriminating and points toward the  
> guiltiness of my father, well then I have to cope with that emotional  
> distress and severe my ties from him.
> I have the utmost disrespect for Islam because I was born into it and I  
> grew up viewing the world with islamic goggles wrapped tight around my  
> head. Do you think I've had a choice in this? I was indoctrinated with the  
> beliefs that Allah is the only true God and that Mohammad was His last,  
> noble Messenger and that you would roast forever in hell if you didn't  
> believe that. It's obvious that you can't choose your parents, so I  
> utterly despise it when people think they have to force the religious  
> baloney down the throat of their children, the way their own parents did  
> it to them. Once you're born a Muslim you'll remain one until your death.  
> There is no such thing as the concept of religious privatism in islamic  
> families like you have it in enlightened societies. You have to carry that  
> stupid religious label around you even after you have made the intelligent  
> decision to free yourself from the mind slavery of Islam. It's a huge  
> taboo to ask tough questions about Islam that might threaten the faith. An  
> even bigger taboo is it to leave the religion altogether. All hell would  
> break loose if you announced your apostasy to your family. The best that  
> could happen is ostracism, and the worst being mercilessly killed for  
> having dared to use your basic human right of freedom of conscience. Even  
> moderate parents would reject you or try to bring you back to the faith,  
> because you know, there's an everlasting punishment awaiting you after  
> your death, and they wouldn't like the thought of you being barbecued by  
> their merciful Lord. It's certainly not easy to be a closet apostate in a  
> muslim family.
> Despite my abhorrence of Islam I acknowledge that the Muslim communities  
> are hugely and immensely diverse. Most of them have a rich and great  
> culture, but alas, as I see it, it is stained with the stupidity and  
> savagery of Islam. I'm very critical of the ideology and I make a  
> distinction between it and the followers. I'm the last person to demonize  
> a whole group of people and say that they are all evil and potential  
> terrorists. I don't have a problem with them practicing their religion  
> privately and in Mosques as long as they fully subscribe to the humanistic  
> values Europe has gained through the enlightenment process. And such a  
> thing has still to happen in Muslim countries and in the minds of the  
> Muslims living in secular countries. They don't even like the slightest  
> negative criticism from a reformist Muslim or Non-Muslim regarding the  
> Prophet and his Message. A lot of deluded reformist Muslims live in  
> secular countries, and even there they often have to fear for their lives  
> (like Irshad Manji for example). When they live in islamic countries all  
> the islamic authorities can do is censor their books, lock them up in a  
> cell or worse execute them. And all the Muslims in the secular countries  
> can do is to get aggressively huffy when someone points out the idiocies  
> and inhumanities in the islamic doctrine.
> 
> I know it's hard to understand that post scriptum one-liner, but I and  
> many other ex-Muslims are fed up with the ever recurring BS phrase "Islam  
> is a tolerant/peaceful religion." Well it is not. Mohammad carried out  
> over 70 raids on caravans routing out of and to Mecca in order to support  
> the weak economy in Medinah. Once he became stronger he attacked the  
> villages of Jewish tribes, massacred ca. 600 men and pubertal boys (of the  
> Banu Quraizah) who were his prisoners of war, the women and children were  
> not harmed but were considered booties of war like cattle, gold etc. and  
> evenly distributed among the army of the Prophet and one fifth was always  
> assigned to him and his sky-daddy Allah (8:41). The apologetic view  
> regarding this is that they received a punishment according to their own  
> book by a jewish judge from their amidst, which of course suddenly acquits  
> him of this unbelievable crime. Mohammad (or his alter ego Allah)  
> sanctioned the right to enjoy those whom thy right hand possesses out of  
> the prisoners of war (33:50). This means it was legitimate for Mohammad  
> and his cult members to have sex with the enslaved women whose husbands  
> and fathers were killed in war. Now tell me, which woman with self-worth  
> and sanity would happily consent to intercourse with the killer of her  
> relatives? Would it matter to throw in the allegation that Mohammad had  
> acted in self-defence in those wars? I don't think so.
> He married a 6 year-old and consumated the marriage when she was 9, and  
> even if you want to dispute all the evidence in the Hadith testifying to  
> this fact, there is a worryingly large amount of Muslims who defend this  
> devilish act with all sorts of mental gymnastics. They really have no  
> qualms about a fifty years old man having intercourse with an innocent  
> child.
> Now if these kind of things don't disgust you I don't know what does.  
> Non-Muslims feel extremely uncomfortable with such statements, even if it  
> comes from the mouth of an ex-Muslim. There's an organisation in Germany,  
> the Central Council of Ex-Muslims, which was founded by the exile-Iranian  
> and dissident Mina Ahadi in the beginning of this year. While Mina was  
> away from home, her husband and 5 other guests were arrested and  
> mercilessly executed by the iranian version of the Gestapo. She had to  
> flee Iran but she didn't remain inactive and founded an organisation with  
> a group of other ex-Muslims that is so deeply needed as a public voice of  
> all the ex-Muslims.
> 
> Of course this isn't the right place to discuss religious issues, but I  
> really felt the need to explain myself, so that the D community can  
> understand me better.