The Death of D. (Was Tango vs Phobos)

[Vincent Richomme]

Steven Schveighoffer a écrit :
> "superdan" wrote
>> Steven Schveighoffer Wrote:
>>
>>> "superdan" wrote
>>>> Christopher Wright Wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Walter Bright wrote:
>>>>>> Christopher Wright wrote:
>>>>>>> A number of modules in phobos/internal are marked public domain. 
>>>>>>> Are
>>>>>>> you asking for Tango's internals to be placed in the public domain?
>>>>>>> That also is a bit much to ask.
>>>>>> Why is it a bit much to ask?
>>>>> The BSD license allows anyone to do anything with the work as long as
>>>>> the authors get proper recognition. The one incentive to distribute 
>>>>> the
>>>>> work is this recognition (besides encouraging others to help with the
>>>>> project).
>>>>>
>>>>> If you're not going to take any Tango code and claim that it is yours,
>>>>> then the BSD license shouldn't cause any problems for you. If you
>>>>> require public domain, that implies that the BSD license causes 
>>>>> problems
>>>>> for you. That implies that you're going to steal code.
>>>> you're not following what walt says eh. his problem is not he wanna 
>>>> steal
>>>> and get away with it. problem is that he doesn't wanna be accused of
>>>> stealing. poop man. he got accused before even lookin' at the gorram
>>>> thing. also his problem is not he doesn't wanna acknowledge whodunit. i
>>>> grepped around phobos and there's many names in there. there's even a 
>>>> guy
>>>> whos name is in there tho all his stuff has been rewritten since.
>>>>
>>>> what walt wanna is look at tango without fear that some dood will cry 
>>>> he
>>>> stole his code. after all there's only this many ways you can do 
>>>> trivial
>>>> sh... stuff like async i/o and logging and containers. slander comes
>>>> easily and goes not so easily. is he paranoid? sure as hell he is. oh,
>>>> wait. some dood _did_ cry walt stole (thru brad) his precious soon as 
>>>> they
>>>> was within a hundred miles. all this while walt is known to give credit
>>>> down to the dog pooping in the driveway walt was looking at when he 
>>>> came
>>>> with an idea. give me an intercoursing break.
>>> The problem is, there is never a guarantee of that.  Joe Shmoe can come
>>> along and claim that he works with Sean and Sean stole all his D Thread 
>>> code
>>> and gave it to tango.  Now, even though the entire Tango team has given
>>> permission to Walter, he is still in trouble.
>> do you want us to participate in a dialog. or revel in improbable 
>> possibilities. this is a red herring.
> 
> I'm glad you see the futility in it :)  I was going off of the messages that 
> said that the owners of the runtime gave permission, but for some reason 
> Walter still refused to look at the runtime package that Sean sent.  What I 
> read in other messages (yes, I've read every one, except for the rant on 
> copyrights and pirating) is that he accepts that Sean (and others) gave 
> permission, but it's possible that some of the other Tango devs had a hand 
> in the runtime (even though they don't claim authorship), and so he wants 
> the permission of ALL the Tango devs.  Sounds a little extreme to me, so I 
> pointed out that this issue is not black and white.  There is a risk 
> associated with it, and I believe Tango devs have minimized the risk, while 
> still protecting their rights as developers for code Walter doesn't need.
> 
>>> The answer is, either Walter accepts that Sean (and others who gave
>>> permission) are the rightful owners of the Tango runtime, and he has
>>> permission to use it, or Walter is so paranoid that he trusts nobody who
>>> says they own code, and he doesn't use it.  He needs to have some faith 
>>> that
>>> the person who says they own the code actually does.
>> i gather you don't quite read all messages. walt don't want to deliver a 
>> compiler with code he can't control. he must deliver code he can change. 
>> if that code works with tango walt must know what he gotta do. to do so he 
>> must look at tango. sean is cool with that. kris and lars "mi" ivar arent.
> 
> You gather incorrectly.  You also have not understood that Tango is split 
> into runtime and user code.  Walter needs to look at the Tango-runtime code, 
> not Tango-user code.  And for that, he has the permission he needs (from 
> Sean).  He doesn't need permission from Kris and Lars because they don't 
> modify the runtime code.
> 
> And nobody is claiming that Walter can't control the Tango code that he 
> uses.  Without any extra permission, I can copy the Tango code, and modify 
> it to my hearts content, release it in binary and source form till the day I 
> die, as long as I give the original authors credit.  I think Walter 
> understands that view as he has the SAME REQUIREMENTS on Phobos.
> 
> What I have understood from the messages is that he does not want to look at 
> tango in case he (in the future) writes something similar to the tango code 
> without realizing it, and gets blamed for copyright infringement.  If he 
> only looks at the runtime code, he shouldn't have anything to worry about.
> 
>>>>> I don't believe that you would do so. But by requiring Tango to be
>>>>> placed in the public domain, you're allowing everyone else to do so.
>>>> he didn't require tango to be placed in the public domain. he asked for
>>>> the same deal he gave to tango. actually he didn't even ask. he just
>>>> mentioned what it takes for him to look at the code.
>>> I agree with you on this, but the fact still remains that Walter is not 
>>> safe
>>> as soon as he looks at any code, no matter who says they wrote it, unless 
>>> he
>>> himself wrote it.  I think this is taking it a little too extreme.
>> yeah, ur interpretation. that's extreme.
> 
> It's just a possibility, not what I think is likely :)  In anything like 
> this, there is always *some* risk.  That is what I was trying to convey.
> 
>>>>>>> The BSD license is simply public domain with attribution.
>>>>>> No, it is not. Public Domain code is not copyrighted and does not
>>>>>> require a license.
>>>>>  >
>>>>>>> So what is the issue with using it? Phobos already uses it. Just 
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> your name as the copyright holder.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or do you want an agreement to allow relicensing of Phobos and 
>>>>>>> Tango,
>>>>>>> let's say to incompatible licenses, and still allow Phobos and 
>>>>>>> Tango
>>>>>>> to share code afterward?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's unclear what you want or need that you don't already have.
>>>>>> The problems are two:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Phobos has already been accused of stealing code from Tango.
>>>>>> Therefore, I would like explicit permission from the Tango team. I 
>>>>>> am
>>>>>> not going to take code from Tango and put it in Phobos without 
>>>>>> explicit
>>>>>> permission from the Tango team. Any hint of Phobos not having a 
>>>>>> clean
>>>>>> legal pedigree will impair its adoption.
>>>>> The BSD license is explicit permission. Or do you intend to 
>>>>> redistribute
>>>>> Tango code without proper attribution?
>>>> no. he just wants to escape the tyranny of slander. he's just worried 
>>>> that
>>>> a tyrangot will _claim_ walt redistributed tango code without proper
>>>> attribution.
>>> The owners have given him permission, and promised not to slander.
>> now i am sure u read every other message in this thread. go back and 
>> read'em all.
> 
> No need, I remember everything :)
> 
>>>  Anyone
>>> who cries foul after the rightful owners have given permission is full of
>>> crap, and I will be the first to say so.
>> no permission was given. do you like me post drunk sometimes.
> 
> Quote from Sean: "As the author of this code, I've long since given my 
> permission.  I
> believe that's all that's necessary."
> 
> Quote from Walter: "In order for Phobos to move towards compatibility, I 
> need a reciprocal
> statement from the Tango team. The Tango license does not allow this,
> and I try to be very careful in making sure Phobos is clean from a legal
> standpoint.
> 
> Sean and Don have been most generous in offering such"
> 
> Which should be enough.  Sean is the owner of the code he needs, nobody else 
> on the Tango team owns the runtime code.  Sean has even sent Walter a 
> package file with the code he owns which (quote from Walter): "is probably 
> sufficient to get compatibility, in which
> case that is plenty good enough."
> 
> So it looks like he has what he needs legally and technically to get it 
> done.  I might be wrong, but his recent posts sound like he is now satisfied 
> with what he has.
> 
>>>  So long as Walter and co. just
>>> look at the proper files (the ones with the permission).  Hell, I don't 
>>> care
>>> if he looks at all of tango, as long as he either doesn't copy the code, 
>>> or
>>> if he does, obeys the license requirements.
>> _you_ don't care. others can't wait. they cried foul as soon as there was 
>> potential code could've been copied. gorramit. at least if there was da 
>> momma of all code. but it's java containers net stack log4j etc. just how 
>> many ways could log4j be in d.
> 
> I wasn't here for that.  I don't know what was said or who said it, but 
> there is a history of Phobos/Tango bad blood that I really am not a part of, 
> and can't really comment on.  All I can say is that, although the wounds 
> seem to still exist, the two parties both seem interested in resolving this 
> problem.
> 
> And there is a huge investment of time and energy into Tango.  The 
> developers have every right to ensure that nobody else claims they wrote it. 
> I don't think Walter needs blanket permission to circumvent that.
> 
>>> I don't think any Tango devs are waiting to jump on Walter at the first
>>> chance Phobos is compatible with Tango.  I think everyone in Tango is
>>> interested in having Phobos and Tango compatible.
>> would be great but don't quite look like it. why don't u do some homework 
>> and read messages. i took 2 days. then talk.
> 
> I read as they come in, and respond as I read.  You are completely wrong if 
> you think the Tango people don't want this resolved.
> 
> -Steve 
> 
> 
I don't really understand all this battle between Phobos and Tango but I 
would like to express my feeling as a user.
I am working for a few months on cross-compilers for embedded platforms 
and I have started with wince.
My first idea was to build specific libraries with an approach inspired 
from Java or .Net Worlds and I didn't want to use phobos nor tango.
First I thought that everything I need was the D compiler with no 
runtime at all and I could built my lib beyond it but I think it doesn't 
work like that.
I only hope this issue will be solved quickly and we 'll get a common 
runtime.