[~ot] why is programming so fun?

[John Reimer]

Hello Bruce,

> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 05:50:05 +0100, Gregor Richards
> <Richards at codu.org>  wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> While I wouldn't put it quite so vigorously, Hear! Hear!
> (why deliberately throw Christians in with Lions? especially when they
> might be in the NRA)


The "science" that ascribes to abiogenisis and evolution is very much religious 
as one can see from the vitriolic outpour of its proponents; it is not science 
nor is a name-calling debate scientific.  I appreciate the fact that Gregor 
begs to differ on that statement.  But saying one places his trust in reason 
alone is rather begging the question: how does this "reason" exist in a random-chance 
universe; did this abstract ability to reason evolve alongside everything 
else in random fashion of trial and error or did it also appear from nothing 
in the big bang; does it continue to evolve, expand, and perfect itself in 
direct conflict with entropy?  If it does, does that make it imperfect right 
now?  When will reasoning and reason be perfect?  If it isn't perfect, does 
that mean our reasoning is greatly flawed still?  Will another million years 
make it unflawed?  If it was very flawed several million years ago, what 
effect did that have on macro evolution so many years ago (or vice versa)? 
 How ever does one know his reasoning skills are reasonable in such a universe 
(sorry, Gregor... that might grate you, but I suppose we'll never see things 
the same. ;) )  This does require a very /potent/ faith to believe is such 
improbabilities and that is a faith in "reason" itself.  Should we add a 
few more billion years to try to resolve it?  Would that help? :)

Concerning Christianity and religion:

Christianity is a worldview, not a religion.  When it is adopted as a religion, 
with pompous ceremony, hypocritical action, and false motive for power... 
then perhaps it might classify as a religion... but then almost any type 
of ideology is subject to the same problem.  This world has proven over and 
over that man will use ANY means to control or gain power... the "religion" 
excuse is just one of many ideologies used as tool for manipulation.  Real 
Christianity is not so, nor does it, if any of you read the Gospel, represent 
anything of a self-centered, mass-controlling ideology designed for personal 
gain.  Separate Christianity from the religiousity and one might be able 
to evaluate the picture differently. 

My point is... you pit "science" against "religion" with the implication 
that these are "at odds" with each other, when, in fact, this is really pitting 
one form of religion against another (or if it were two worldviews: realism 
verses theism).  It's sad to see people start to believe in science as a 
self-fulfilling singular entity of truth -- that it is not. I believe strongly 
in a scientific process and /reason/, but I claim that such only make sense 
in theistic worldview in which structure and control are not based on random 
chance.  Reason continues to exist despite ones worldview, but its existance 
is ill-defined and perhaps faultily directed apart from theism.

There is no need to force such ideas on anyone, of course.... Nor is there 
a need to immediately conjure up images of NRA or terrorists to blight the 
idea of a God-centric worldview. Like I said earlier, man will perform evil 
with or without theistic worldview: they are very adept at using any ideology 
that comes in handy -- and sadly religion becomes a tool as well.  Nonetheless 
this abuse is no disproof of the validity of theism nor does it represent 
it.  It many contexts, it represents the desires of the people abusing it.  

One is entitled to perceive this universe as one likes, but that person is 
taking a monstrous chance in the sense that his misunderstanding of reality 
could result in dire consequences that could have been easily avoided:  for 
example,  the bible claims that the "wages of sin is death" and that those 
who practice lawlessness" will be subject to judgement by a holy God and 
eternal punishment.  If this claim is true, all who practice lieing, stealing, 
adultery, coveting, sexual immorality and so on will (1) experience the consequences 
of such sins on earth and (2) will have to answer for their sin before a 
just and holy God after they die.  Now does my saying this make it so? No, 
but it certainly bares careful thought, I think, especially given the fact 
that these sins repeatedly (and probably testably) do result in corruption, 
depression, and disaster in one's life and those he or she touches.  And 
not just for those that reject a theistic worldview, but even more so for 
those that call themselves "Christians" but act otherwise.  

And this is the problem we face today where there is a struggle to represent 
a theistic worldview in any good light because so many claim a form of it 
but putrify the reality of it with abuses of self-service, power, immorality, 
and religiousity.  This is a hypocracy that has no part in Christianity: 
for example, divorce and remarriage (called adultery in the bible -- marriage 
is for life) being one of the biggest issues of our age is "re-molded" and 
redefined as natural and normal.  The result? Today's "Christians" are indeed 
becoming the more guilty and hypocritical in that they absolve their sin 
amongst each other, meanwhile promoting a false salvation from sin... and 
in the process single-handedly become the greatest argument against their 
"apparent" worldview by presenting to the world that sin isn't really sin.

I claim that their is a truth here that is not represented by our culture 
anymore, but is easily found if one searches for it honestly.  I write just 
as openly as anyone here that would offer a view of their own philosophy 
of life. It is not forced, racist, biggoted, based on vitriol, or uncaring... 
but rather is offered because I do earnestly hope people will find truth 
and the meaning of "reality".  It is a belief, yes belief, that life is more 
than this little span of time on earth, that there is hope-- not based in 
evolutionary survival of mechan-electro-chemical random reactions --  and 
that death to self and subjection to a loving God through Jesus Christ and 
his offering of salvation is the fundamental key to understanding what life 
trully means and is a escape from the addictions and corruptions that will 
most certainly enslave and destroy us.

Take it or leave it. :)

-JJR