[Slight OT] TDPL in Russia

[Nick Sabalausky]

"Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy at yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:op.vig8crpreav7ka at localhost.localdomain...
>
> And OMG, you've never bought a cell phone?  Why are you punishing yourself 
> ;)  I suppose with the attitude you have towards them it would just raise 
> your blood pressure carrying it around...
>

It would :) But I have other reasons for not having one. One of them is that 
I just don't do anywhere near enough yapping (outside of NG text, of course 
;) ) for it to be worthwhile. Cell companies don't even have a plan that 
would be small enough to be appropriate for me. But the landlines do, and 
with the tiny amount of talking I do, waiting until I get home to use the 
phone is a complete non-issue (especially since I'd be the only cell owner 
in the world to that would refuse to use it while driving). And I don't even 
*want* to be reachable 24/7. Unlimited minutes? Forget it. Back when pay 
phones still existed, my away-from-home phone usage never totaled more than 
$5/yr. Try finding a cell plan that competes with that.

> Your lack of experience with cell phones does not give any boost to your 
> position...
>

I never said I lacked experience with them, I said I never owned one. I've 
used them plenty, and I've even done WAP/WML sites (I'm glad that's gone!) 
and C/J2ME on Symbian.

>
> Huh?  Why should verizon go out of its way to allow you to use its phones 
> with other services?  Maybe you don't understand capitalism...
>

1. Anti-competitive practices are illegal under capitalism (...but then 
again, so is having the government in your company's pocket). In any case, 
the destruction of consumer choice is a hallmark of communism, not 
capitalism. Contrary to popular belief, capitalism doesn't bean bending over 
a table and taking it so big business can make a couple extra bucks.

2. Companies like Verizon doesn't make phones. They pay companies like Nokia 
and Samsung to slap on branded stickers, or just commission them to build 
proprietary phones.

People used to rent phones from the land-line companies. Then cross-provider 
for-purchase phones came around. That was a good thing. Now people want to 
go backwards.

>
> But cell phones and  computers change so fast that the hardware is 
> obsolete before it's broken.
>

That just absurd. Just because a newer fizzbarwidget comes out doesn't mean 
you can't keep using your old one...unless you happen to be an Apple 
customer.

Do I need to link to my phone again? I've had that probably close to ten 
years and all the cell phones and smart phone features in the world aren't 
doing a damn thing to make my phone suddenly cease functioning. How would 
they? Seek-and-destroy mini-missiles?

Obsolescence comes from three things:

1. Forced by big business strong-arming people into buying products via 
subscription model.

2. Physical breaking down.

3. The consumer *themself* deciding to get the new one *despite* the old one 
still working fine (If it didn't still work fine, it would fall under #1 or 
#2) .

Notice that "a newer one came out and proceeded to break all the old ones" 
isn't in there.

>> However, outside the cell phone world, such situations are likely to 
>> result
>> in dual-use devices
>
> There were some phones like that.  Nobody cared ;)
>

Yea, widespread contract lock-in, along with cable-card-style 
sweeping-it-under-the-rug will do that. (You don't expect me to believe the 
carriers didn't try to steer people away from those phones, do you?)

>
> I've had two old-style touch screen phones before this.  They suck.  They 
> break, require calibration, and require a stylus.  My samsung phone got to 
> be so inaccurate that I pretty much avoided using the touch screen as much 
> as possible.  I'll pay the price of lost accuracy when positioning a 
> cursor in order to avoid having to pop out a stylus to press on-screen 
> buttons.
>

*Shrug* Both of my PalmOS devices still work fine, the accuracy always 
worked fine, calibration takes about two seconds and is a one-time deal, I 
never had a problem with a fingernail, and I like syluses (stylii?).

>>
>> Which is exactly why it's idiotic for Apple to make the entire interface
>> touchscreen.  You do that and you lose tactile feedback and you can't 
>> just
>> hack it back in. If you took my Palm Pilot, replaced the 
>> up/down/left/right
>> and app buttons with touchscreen input, that would be a step *backwards*.
>> You'd gain nothing but a questionable "cool factor", and the UI would 
>> just
>> simply be worse.
>
> But PalmOS is not iOS.  I've had about 5 palms, starting with the palm 
> III, and I like the apple interface significantly more.
>

Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting iOS used the exact same buttonset as 
PalmOS.

>>> The screen is made of pretty durable glass.  Like all touch-screen 
>>> phones,
>>> it's highly advisable to get a screen protector for it.  I don't get 
>>> what
>>> your problem is here, do you want a screen or not?  If you do, then what
>>> possible way could a manufacturer design a destruction-proof screen? 
>>> Put
>>> little airbags around it in case you drop it?
>>>
>>
>> Oh, please, it's not that difficult to come up with ways around it:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laptop
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Boy_Advance_SP
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_DS
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip_phone
>
> So you mean, it should fold?  You can just say that you know :)
>

While I would consider that an improvement, I was just pointing that out 
your implication that there were no other realistic options was absurd.

>
> Note that with a folding device, it's probably *less* durable because the 
> folding part can break, and wires can more easily come loose.  Less moving 
> parts == more reliable.
>

That's kind of like saying "VMs are better than native-code because 
native-code languages tend to lack high-level expressiveness." So what, 
avoid the whole group just because *some* aren't up to par?

I've had a laptop for about 10 years. It's dead now, but the screen and 
hinge still work flawlessly. And I have an original-model DS from one of the 
first few production runs (no more than half a year after initial release). 
To this day, I've never had any hinged-screen-related problem. I've never 
even heard of a case of a non-abused original-model DS "Phat" having hinge 
problems. The DS Lite was known to have that problem, but the fact that the 
particular model makes such a difference indicates that it's *not* an 
inevitable problem for hinged-screens in general. Just like native-code 
languages and high-level features.

>
> No, but its *far* from a failed design also :)  Protecting the screen from 
> breakage by having a hard cover detracts from the usability.  Besides, I 
> think the phone is pretty darned durable, it's not a cheap feeling thing. 
> I'm not going to throw it against the wall, but I wouldn't do that with a 
> folding phone either.  I also have a rubber protective case on it too (but 
> the screen is exposed).
>

You've never had stray button presses? Anyway, I'm just saying, 
exposed-screen isn't perfect.

>>
>> In and of itself, maybe. But thinness typically necessitates other design
>> compromises, all for a "benefit" that is, as you say, petty.
>
> What compromises?  What is it missing that could be there if it were 
> thicker?
>

Compromises that often need to be made for ultra-thin devices:

- Low battery life.
- Inability to self-service the battery.
- Low storage space due to lack of room for hard drive.
- Reduced variety of i/o ports.
- Reduced or eliminated potential for expandability.

That's just off the top of my head. There's probably others.

>>> Note that the ipad directly competes with e-Reader devices, so they need
>>> to appeal to those people too.
>>>
>>
>> That still doesn't necessitate "as thin as conceivably possible".
>
> It doesn't necessitate it, but it does score points with that crowd. 
> People want a thin book-sized device to read all their books.
>

Heh, well, most of the dead-tree books I own or have read are far thicker 
than any ultra-thin device (0.75" to 1.5"). And a lot of them have roughly 
8.5"x11" pages, which is bigger than any book reader I've seen. I think my 
old Pentium 2 laptop would technically qualify as "book-sized" ;) (I have 
books that are still bigger than it.)

>
> You might like this: 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-Cm8MFqxWw&feature=fvst
>

Heh, yea, that's good. The MacBook Wheel was really good too. Funnier, but 
didn't make quite the variety of good jabs as that Mactini does :)

> I agree, smaller isn't always better.  But I mean smaller as in, if it was 
> an external battery, then it would have to be larger than you would like. 
> The iPhone size isn't too small.
>

I do agree the iPhone isn't too small. But I'd rather have a 1" thick 
handheld with a hard drive, buttons, good variety of i/o and a replaceable 
battery than a 0.3" with none of that.

If some company took the first-generation Zune, ripped out all the arbitrary 
lock-outs, added a stylus touchscreen and maybe a convertible-tablet-style 
keyboard, and added PDA software, I would buy it in a heartbeat (well, 
poverty notwithstanding ;) )

Or, better yet, if they took the best features of the Palm Zire 71 and 72, 
updated it for PalmOS 6 (not WebOS), gave it roughly the size of the 
original Zune, a replaceable battery, and tossed in a hard drive and an 
option to go back to v1 of Grafitti, I'd be in love :)

>
> No, polish is making something behave the way it should behave.  This 
> includes fixing bugs and usability issues, but not "designs you don't 
> like."

Polish is attention to detail and a lack of (metaphorical) rough edges. I 
still maintain that implies quality in both technical *and* design issues, 
but I suppose we're both running out of ways to effectively debate the 
meaning of "polish".

>
> Well, I did misunderstand your stance, but my point is that "thin is 
> better" *is* a major selling point for most people.

I'm convinced that's mostly just because they've been lead to blindly 
believe that "thinner is always better" and don't think for themselves.

If you start asking random people if wireless or wired is better, most won't 
hesitate to say "wireless". If they're asked to explain why, they'll either 
say something about "convenience", or in a lot of cases (and I've observed 
this) they'll admit they believe wireless is better just because that's what 
they've heard. But *very* few people will know that wired is generally 
faster, more reliable, and more secure. But they don't know that because all 
they've heard is "Wireless wireless wireless!! Get yours here! Cheap! 
Everyone else wants wireless, you should too!" Oh really? They do? Well 
shit! I want to be just like all the other people that the obviously biased 
ad told me about!

I see the same happening with size and thinness. People just assume it's 
better because all the marketing subtly implies it's inherently better. It's 
brainwash marketing, and that people are stupid enough to fall for it 
doesn't excuse it.

>
> Oh, one other thing that's annoying, but I think it's because of pressure 
> from the phone companies who want to charge you an extra $15/month for 
> "enterprise access", it doesn't read ics calendar appointments unless you 
> use microsoft exchange.  That is *extremely* crappy and pointless.
>

I've had an eye on the cell scene since pagers died out, and this sort of 
thing is one constant that never seems to go away. It'll change forms - at 
one point it'll be the ringtones, then maybe your photos, maybe your 
appointment book, or maybe something else. But there's always something they 
arbitrarily restrict and then charge for. I don't reward such scams by 
buying into them. PalmOS never pulled that crap. Desktops, laptops and 
netbooks don't either.

> Compare this to my list of issues with Windows mobile 6, you will find 
> they haven't even opened the polish can yet :)
>

If someone lined up twenty piles of dog doo, and one of them seemed less 
stinky then the others, I'm not going to jump up and say "This one smells 
great!". Even if the iPhone is the best cell phone in history (and I'm not 
saying I think it is or isn't), that's still how I see the situation.