Python vs D [ was Re: Bartosz about Chapel ]

[Russel Winder]

On Thu, 2011-11-10 at 20:35 -0800, J Arrizza wrote:
> >
> > True but somehow they manage to become famous because there was a
> > killer feature everyone wanted to use. If I recall correctly:
> >
> > Perl - An easy way to create complex shell scripts and the major language
> > to
> > be used for web development (CGI)
> > Ruby - It only took off because Ruby on Rails
> > Python - People only started taking it serious after Zope appeared

Not sure about Python and Zope.  Whereas most programmers and their
bosses know about Perl and CGI, and Ruby on Rails, many have never even
heard of Zope.  Python gets is main indirect marketing from being a
nicer language than Perl, and the dynamic language for driving C stuff.
C code base folk generally love Python since it can be used for building
integration and system test suites.

Also of course Python and Lua are the languages that provide the dynamic
plugin support for a huge range of C/C++ systems in the games and
post-production industries.

> Paulo, with respect, I disagree. A single killer feature does not have
> enough breadth to entice a developer community that has large and varied
> needs from a language.

But in developing the reputation it is critical to have a high profile
showcase.  Ruby would not have caught on as it did without Rails.  This
revolutionized Web application development and made Ruby a trendy
language.  Grails put Groovy front and centre in people's minds.  Whilst
Ruby is not making great strides outside the Rails arena, Groovy is now
more used generally in JVM systems that with just Grails.

> To me, it is this that caused the success of these languages in a short
> time:
> 
> Perl has CPAN
> Ruby has gems
> Python has PyPi.
> Java has the JDK
> C# has the CLR

And LaTeX has CTAN.  Certainly CPAN, gems, PyPI are massive resources
for Perl, Ruby and Python, but they are not sole success factors.  With
them success is possible, without them success is unlikely -- though
note Perl was hugely popular which caused CPAN to be created.

Java JDK is a different beast.

C# CLR is surely more akin to Java JVM?

It is interesting that there is an explosion of languages on JVM, but
Microsoft is retrenching to C#/F#/VB#/C++CLR on CLR and shedding any
language it is not directly in control of.

> All of the libraries are huge and, just as importantly, they're organized
> (although some better than others).
> 
> Depending on your level of cynicism, these libraries show one or more of
> the following about a language:
> 
> 1) In short, if it's good enough for CPAN/gems/PyPi, it's probably good
> enough for my little application. Right?
> 
> A large library shows a strong, deep maturity of the language itself. You
> can not write thousands of varied utilities, tools, application frameworks,
> etc. etc. without a well functioning, clean, nearly bug-free language.
> 
> All the kinks are worked out. As the library was being written, enough
> people bitched about these and those problems and they got fixed. They
> complained about the aspects of the language they were facing as they were
> writing their piece of the library. All those opinions, all those fixes,
> led to a fleshing out and stabilization of the language features. It now
> has breadth *and* depth.

This is a strong point: a large quality, extensible library shows a
successful infrastructure.

> 2) a plunging chasm of self-serving laziness in the developer community.
> Why code it myself? Let someone else do the heavy lifting and then I can
> use it and look great...
> 
> Example: I need the current price of some mutual funds. Sure I could do it
> the old fashioned way and screen scrape some html, blah blah. Or I could go
> to CPAN, find the module that does it (and there always is one) and write
> three lines of code.  Oh wait I wanted Canadian mutual funds. No problem.
> Done.

Why is this wrong?

> 3) A vote of confidence by many other developers the language is going to
> stick around. There are always zealots for any given language, but with a
> substantial base of people numbering in the thousands or better tens of
> thousands, perhaps it's a safe bet the language will be there in 15 years.
>  And they are "voting" by writing lots and lots of code, so it's not just
> jaw.

On the other hand, there is a huge amount of C and Fortran code out
there, so therefore C or Fortran is the language to code in.

-- 
Russel.
=============================================================================
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.winder at ekiga.net
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel at russel.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder
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