Inheritance of purity

H. S. Teoh hsteoh at
Thu Feb 23 16:38:13 PST 2012

On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 01:01:51AM +0100, F i L wrote:
> UTC, so wrote:
> >No one said you shouldn't use IDE or any other tool, but i don't
> >think it is healthy to design a language with such assumptions.
> >Walter himself was against this and stated why he doesn't like Java
> >way of doing things, one of the reason was the language was relying
> >on IDEs.
> Well then I disagree with Walter on this as well. What's wrong with
> having a "standard" toolset in the same way you have standard
> libraries?

Um... dmd and phobos *are* the standard toolset.

> It's unrealistic to think people (at large) will be writing any sort
> of serious application outside of a modern IDE.

I do that at my day job, every single day. So do my other 300+ odd

And it's not just a single application, it's an entire embedded system
complete with an OS, system-level services, database, and GUI.

> I'm not saying it's Walters job to write IDE integration, only that
> the language design shouldn't cater to the smaller use-case scenario.

It's not a smaller use-case scenario at all.

> Cleaner code is easier to read

I write quite-clean code with a text editor every day.

> and, within an IDE with tooltips, makes little difference when looking
> at the hierarchy. If you want to be hard-core about it, no one is
> stopping you from explicitly qualifying each definition.

What if you have to deal with other people's code? Which I have to do as
part of my job responsibilities, and which often counts for 80-90% of my
actual day-to-day work.

On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 01:15:08AM +0100, F i L wrote:
> H. S. Teoh wrote:
> >>In all seriousness, I think you're decoupling inherently ingrained
> >>pieces: the language and it's tools. The same way you *need* syntax
> >>highlighting to distinguish structure,
> >
> >I don't.
> wait... you don't even use Syntax Highlighting? Are you insane, you'll
> go blind!

I'll freely admit my eyesight is deteriorating, but if I'm insane then
so are the other 300+ coworkers in my office, most of whom write code
every single day with a text-editor on a Linux command-line. I'd like to
believe I don't work in a mental institution. :-P

> >True, they have their value. I don't argue with that.
> >
> >But why should anyone be *forced* to use them? They're just tools.  A
> >language is a language (a set of syntax and grammar rules with the
> >associated semantics). It's not inherently tied to any tools.
> The only reason Visual Studio being so closely tied to C#/VB/etc is
> a bad thing is because it's closed source and ultimately designed as
> [yet another] developer lock-in (just good business right?). Beyond
> that it's really silly not to use VS cause of all the productive
> features it provides.

It's not an option at my job, because the embedded system requires gcc
to even compile properly. (Yes I hear the background screams about non
portability. It's one of the perks of writing software for hardware that
you make yourself. :-))

> MonoDevelop is catching up, but still quite a ways behind in some
> areas. No one is stopping anyone from writing code in Notepad.. but
> then, no one is stopping 3D artists from manually editing .obj files
> in Notepad either.

Ahh, no wonder you have such aversion to non-IDE development. Let me
just say this, once: NotePad is not a real text editor.

You're absolutely right that if I, and my 300+ coworkers, have to use
that nightmarish walking disaster called Notepad to write code, then
we'd all have quit 10 years ago (or the company would've collapsed long
ago from a non-working product).

When you have a *real* text editor at your disposal, writing code is
actually on par, if not better, than development in an IDE. I'd like to
think that it's only because I'm a weirdo who lived past my generation
and still haven't moved on from the 70's, but the fact of the matter is
that there are 300 of us here in this building right now who write code
with VI every single day, 5 days a week. And I find it hard to believe
that we're the only ones on earth doing this. :-)


"A one-question geek test. If you get the joke, you're a geek: Seen on a
California license plate on a VW Beetle: 'FEATURE'..." -- Joshua D.
Wachs - Natural Intelligence, Inc.

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