MS extend C++ significantly for Windows8... and Andrei got name drop

[Adam Wilson]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 00:30:14 -0800, Manu <turkeyman at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 26 January 2012 03:15, Adam Wilson <flyboynw at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 15:05:43 -0800, Manu <turkeyman at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  On 26 January 2012 00:55, Adam Wilson <flyboynw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>  On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:44:09 -0800, Manu <turkeyman at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  On 26 January 2012 00:37, Adam Wilson <flyboynw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:28:46 -0800, Manu <turkeyman at gmail.com>  
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  On 25 January 2012 23:59, Adam Wilson <flyboynw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:35:38 -0800, Manu <turkeyman at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  On 25 January 2012 21:47, bls <bizprac at orange.fr> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   On 01/25/2012 07:03 AM, Manu wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   This is fairly interesting. MS have extended their C++ compiler
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  significantly for Windows8 with a bunch of non-standard stuff.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> FINALLY implement garbage collection, ref counting, properties,
>>>>>>>>>>> delegates, events, generics, etc...
>>>>>>>>>>> If other compilers adopt this tech, D loses some advantages.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  But you still have to fight with ifndef ,forward declaration,
>>>>>>>>>>> and a
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  template syntax against common sense.  Even if you paint shit
>>>>>>>>>> yellow
>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>> not necessarily gold.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  True, but I think this will mitigate a lot of the motivation
>>>>>>>>>> Windows
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  devs
>>>>>>>>> have to seek another language if they're not developing cross
>>>>>>>>> platform
>>>>>>>>> apps.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sadly, since WinRT requires using these language extensions to
>>>>>>>>> interface
>>>>>>>>> with the new windows runtime, you won't be able to write a  
>>>>>>>>> Windows8
>>>>>>>>> app
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> D.
>>>>>>>>> Interestingly though, D supports almost everything they've added  
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> C++. I
>>>>>>>>> wonder if it would be possible to do extern(Windows8) to produce  
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> compatible ABI for linking with MS C++ apps?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The most interesting features are 'ref new' and 'gcnew', which  
>>>>>>>>> makes
>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>> wonder, since Windows8 has an OS garbage collector, would it be  
>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>> possible to have D use the Windows8 GC? I'd prefer this to using  
>>>>>>>>> D's
>>>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>>>> GC
>>>>>>>>> if it would be supported, and obviously this would be a  
>>>>>>>>> requirement
>>>>>>>>> if D
>>>>>>>>> was going to interact with WinRT properly.
>>>>>>>>> Also, WinRT uses 'ref new' to allocate ref counted (effectively  
>>>>>>>>> COM
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>> understanding) objects. I think I read somewhere that D already  
>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>> extern(COM) no? I wonder if Windows8 ref type linkage is already
>>>>>>>>> technically supported in D?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  There is no Win8GC, it's all ref counted. WinRT is COM with  
>>>>>>>>> extras
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and as
>>>>>>>> such should be accessible to D. It would need some extra glue code
>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>> what we have now ... like the IInspectable interface.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Really? So what's 'gcnew' for?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  That's for targeting the CLR (.NET) so it doesn't conflict with
>>>>>> new/delete
>>>>>> in regular C++. It goes all the way back to the first C++/CLI in  
>>>>>> Visual
>>>>>> Studio 2005.
>>>>>> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-******us/library/te3ecsc8.aspx<http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-****us/library/te3ecsc8.aspx>
>>>>>> <ht**tp://msdn.microsoft.com/en-****us/library/te3ecsc8.aspx<http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-**us/library/te3ecsc8.aspx>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> <http**://msdn.microsoft.com/**en-us/**library/te3ecsc8.aspx<http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/**library/te3ecsc8.aspx>
>>>>>> <**http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-**us/library/te3ecsc8.aspx<http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/te3ecsc8.aspx>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So there is a GC... It just happens to be the .net GC. Is that a
>>>>> problem?
>>>>> Obviously it's accessible in C++ code. Can you use it to allocate C++
>>>>> objects, or is it exclusively for some sort of interaction with .net?
>>>>> If the rest of the platform is using it...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> It's exclusively for the .NET Framework and requires the .NET  
>>>> Framework
>>>> to
>>>> be installed and loaded to run. It's the .NET Runtime, and as such, it
>>>> would be VERY unwise to base anything D on it.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> .NET will be a requirement on all Win8 machines. You didn't answer  
>>> though,
>>> can you use the .NET GC to allocate C++ objects to use throughout your
>>> native program? Or is gcnew strictly for interfacing C++ with .NET,  
>>> like
>>> C++/CLI?
>>>
>>
>> It is strictly for allocating .NET objects. You CANNOT allocate C++
>> objects with the .NET GC, that was implied by the statement on the use  
>> of
>> the .NET GC.
>
>
> I see, well that's good. I presume then that it shouldn't be too much
> trouble to implement MS C++'s ref type ABI in D then if it is just
> basically COM.
> How about 'delegate'? Would it be trouble to make the extern ABI  
> compatible
> when passing delegates between MSC++/D?

Theoretically, it wouldn't be to hard, getting Walter to do it however ...

-- 
Adam Wilson
Project Coordinator
The Horizon Project
http://www.thehorizonproject.org/