Had another 48hr game jam this weekend...

[Manu]

On 3 September 2013 18:38, John Colvin <john.loughran.colvin at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Tuesday, 3 September 2013 at 01:18:16 UTC, Manu wrote:
>
>> On 3 September 2013 02:19, John Colvin <john.loughran.colvin at gmail.**com<john.loughran.colvin at gmail.com>
>> >wrote:
>>
>>  On Monday, 2 September 2013 at 03:14:38 UTC, Manu wrote:
>>>
>>>  On 2 September 2013 04:00, bearophile <bearophileHUGS at lycos.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Manu:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  Seriously, how do you quickly read and understand the API through the
>>>>>
>>>>>  noise?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  The noise increases if you have to repeat the class name for each
>>>>> method
>>>>> :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  Except that you can _read the class definition_.
>>>>
>>>> Look, I'm just giving an account of the collective experience from our
>>>> weekend. None of us could find anything easily in each others classes,
>>>> or
>>>> quickly get a reasonable overview of it's design and how it worked.
>>>> This leads to needless conversations, asking the other person about it,
>>>> and
>>>> all those questions that I should be able to understand at a glance.
>>>> This WILL affect productivity in the office.
>>>>
>>>> The reason was that functions were polluting the class declaration. 9
>>>> times
>>>> out of 10, when I look at a class declaration, I want to know what it
>>>> is,
>>>> what it has, and what it can do.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Code folding? It's a pretty standard feature of most editors since
>>> forever.
>>>
>>>
>> I think I've repeated myself 3 or 4 times here, but one more time for good
>> measure...
>>
>> Requiring IDE assistance to make code _readable_ seems completely fail to
>> me.
>> 1) You're not always reading code in your IDE, often in commit logs, diff
>> windows, emails, chat clients.
>>
>
> for some people, all of those things are emacs.


I've never met a professional at work in well over a decade that uses
emacs. Only computer geeks/enthusiasts.
Granted, this probably reflects industry standards in my work, but it is
what it is.

 2) With so much hate for IDE support, it seems like a massive contradiction
>> to say that an IDE should be required to make code readable.
>>
>
> There's a different between and IDE and an editor, but it's a pretty
> blurry line. There are lots of people here(myself included) who don't feel
> the need for a full blown IDE, but I'd be surprised if (almost) anyone here
> used an editor that didn't support such basic things as code folding.
>

I hate code folding. I think it's even worse. It ruins my mental picture of
the code, and it's annoying and fiddly to micro-manage.
Strangely enough, I've never seen anyone at work use it either.

anyway, in the end it's a trade-off.
> Definitions inside class:
>    -you know where it is (never ends up in a different file etc)
>    -declarations always in sync
>    -it clutters the signature
>
>    solution: code folding or go-to-next-function or minimal documentation.
> Worst case you can scroll and you'll know if you've got to the end of the
> class then it's not there.
>
> Definitions seperate:
>    -clear class signature
>    -no idea where to find implementation
>
>    solution: go-to-definition. Worst case you have to go through separate
> files searching for a definition by eye. Even if it has to be in the same
> file, you have no hint where.
>

Who said anything about separate files? I never said that.

Both cases require some editor features in order to be ideal, but if you
> don't have those tools (e.g. in all the other places you've mentioned*)
> then it's just a choice between having to scroll a bit some of the time or
> having to occasionally go on a blind code-hunt.
>

Yes, it is a *choice*.
I'm not trying to force you to put your functions outside your class
definition if you don't want to.

*A lot of people use version-control aware editors to do a lot of what
> you're talking about e.g. view a diff.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.puremagic.com/pipermail/digitalmars-d/attachments/20130904/d153a52f/attachment-0001.html>