Move VisualD to github/d-programming-language ?

[Russel Winder]

On Sun, 2013-09-08 at 23:00 +0200, Ramon wrote:
> Just for the sake of completeness:
> 
> mono is *detested* and considered even more inacceptable than 
> java by many linux and (even more) *BSD users.

It also appears that Microsoft are beginning to think the whole CLR
thing is on it's last legs.

The whole "all non-Windows users have to hate C#" thing has some basis
in fact but also had a lot of FUD associated with it.  The "Mono hatred"
stemmed from that. So will Microsoft go after Mono with patent suits if
they are not themselves using C# and CLR? They possibly might as an
income stream, but it is unlikely to be profitable and so may be not.

Without solid support from Microsoft the C#F#/CLR culture is unlikely to
remain strong, despite the serious success F# has had in making people
interested in CLR. And C# is not a bad language, in many ways much
better than Java. But Java has staying power in ways C#/F# do not.

> Actually I *did* try the eclipse D IDE thing ... and found it to 
> match my (utterly negative) perception of java (which has pretty 
> nothing to do with the D ide and pretty everything with eclipse). 
> Concerning Mono-D I heard about it and respect the efforts of the 
> creator(s) ... but never even looked at it (and never will until 
> hell freezes).

Eclipse is a monster, but once you get used to it, it can be good. I do
not use CDT, but I do use Eclipse sometimes for Java, Groovy, Scala and
Python. Eclipse has users because it is "corporate", and free.
Organizations , especially Java related ones, have basically made
Eclipse the core tool. However IntelliJ IDEA has a much more vocal
following mostly because it works better than Eclipse for them, and they
have to pay for it. I use IntelliJ IDEA sometimes for Java, Groovy and
Scala, and PyCharm sometimes for Python. (The IDE editors are still
nowhere near as good as Emacs (and VIM), but IDEs are great for
debugging. So I use Emacs most of the time for editing and the IDE in
the rare occasions I actually have to debug.)

Interesting to note that Android has switched from Eclipse to IntelliJ
IDEA as the base for the Android development platform.

I gave Mono-D a whirl, but as I don't do any C# or F#, it has brought in
a huge amount of dependencies. My problem is I do not understand how the
"Solution" system is the same or different to everyone else's "Project"
system. I guess I do not have much enthusiasm to find out as I can just
use Emacs.

> I vaguely remember seeing colleagues work with Visual$$ on 
> Windoze and they looked happy and productive to me.
> For a reason: Visual$$ seems to serve quite nicely the needs and 
> expectations of those developing on Windoze.

If Windows and (C or C++ or C# or F# or Python) then VisualStudio.
If Windows and Java then (Eclipse of IntelliJ IDEA)

So if D is to compete with C++ on Windows, a D plugin for Visual Studio
has to be in place and enjoyably usable.

> For fairness sake:
> It's next to impossible to do the same (as Visual$$) on linux/BSD 
> due to complexity and a fractured eco system. Gnome and QT/kde 
> basically are religious issues and no matter which one one 
> chooses one will have a large audience refusing it. Besides both 
> are monstrous (and more often than not meet resistance or at the 
> very minimum reluctance on the Windoze side). Fox and fltk are 
> nice little thingies but not up to (todays) par lacking even 
> functionality like printing. And so on.

GNOME vs. Qt may be religious to certain parties, but most people choose
either GNOME or KDE for the desktop and then load the other widget set
as well. I use GNOME but I have a many Qt-based things on here and
indeed develop PySide and PyQt5 based systems since GNOME is a
non-starter on Windows and OS X. Pragmatism is the order of the day here
not religious fervour. 

For Go I use the Eclipse Go perspective, but more usually LiteIDE which
is a Qt-based system that works fine on GNOME – and OS X and Windows.
wxWidgets used to be interesting but wxPython is not shifting to Python
3 so it is effectively dead. Phoenix is trying to create a Python 3
binding for wxWidgets but it is not finished yet. If it makes it then
wxWidgets re-enters my use sphere.

I think that now that Qt has escaped from
Microsoft^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HNokia, it will return to being one of the two
primary system for cross-platform GUI systems, wxWidgets being the
other. Thus I think QtD (fot Qt4 and Qt5) should be seen as an essential
component of the D milieu.  wxD should also get some presence. It is
great we have GtkD, but I cannot see it ever having any cross-platform
traction.

> That's quite regrettable, considering that we have a quite nice 
> editor engine (Scintilla), quite good a debugger, and quite good 
> compilers for pretty every language around.
> 
> That said, maybe my first reaction was too harsh. After all, it's 
> not D's job to solve the linux gui troubles.
> Having GDC with GDB working and some editors and even IDEs more 
> or less working with D, I see that I should walk back a little 
> and agree with the proposal (of this thread).
> 
> A+ -R

-- 
Russel.
=============================================================================
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.winder at ekiga.net
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel at winder.org.uk
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder
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