A Perspective on D from game industry

[Nick Sabalausky via Digitalmars-d]

On 6/15/2014 9:55 PM, Manu via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> On 16 June 2014 05:53, Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d
> <digitalmars-d at puremagic.com> wrote:
>> On 6/15/2014 12:27 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
>>>
>>> It really gets me that the same industry which created Frostbite 3, Unreal
>>> Engine 4, GTA5, Steam (obviously all enormous investments), mostly done
>>> *in* C++
>>> which makes them that much MORE effort, will bitch *soo* much about C++
>>> and
>>> STILL won't get off their asses enough to write, or even contribute to, a
>>> mere
>>> language.
>>
>>
>> It's all about comfort zone. It is much easier to continue doing what one is
>> familiar with than to try something new.
>>
>> It's also fair to say that some people have learned D, and gone back to C++.
>
> I think the reason is mostly like I said in my other post; that
> gamedev is a strictly closed and proprietary industry. Open Source is
> a synonym with "flakey, barely working, non-windows-compatible,
> probably-linux-nonsense, rubbish", if you ask most gamedev's. They
> don't understand OSS, and the industry doesn't support any knowledge

Interesting. That explains a chat I had a few years back, that had been 
puzzling me ever since, with a gamedev guy. I'd known him for a long 
time, and I *know* he's a very intelligent guy, but when the subject 
changed to OSS, suddenly it felt like, uhh, *ahem*...like the LA Times 
was trying to tell me about Nintendo's PlayStation 4 ;). *Zero* 
awareness of the real-word commercial contributions to OSS (Almost as if 
Mozilla didn't even exist). But I *knew* this guy was smart enough to 
know better. I just couldn't figure it out.

But if that's a prevalent belief in the industry, then that would 
explain what felt like an almost surreal conversation.

 > in the field. I think this is changing, but it hasn't pervasively
 > affected gamedev culture yet...
 >

I've been watching Unity3D pretty closely as of late, and I predict that 
it, plus it's Asset Store (or similar competitors) are going to start 
forcing the issue of AAA collaboration/openness more and more. That 
company seems to be built, in no small part, on putting indies closer 
and closer to competing with AAAs. And they have a history of making 
some real eyebrow-raising steps in that direction, with no signs of 
slowing down.

I'm convinced Epic's already taken notice of that, as UE4 seems to be 
directly targeted at both Frostbite and Unity (Not that Frostbite has 
gone commercial, AFAIK).

Related to this whole topic of openness in gamedev, Slightly Mad's 
Project C.A.R.S. is really going to be something to keep an eye on. I'd 
imagine the success or failure of that could very well trigger at least 
a few ripples.

> To say that they literally have no time to spend on extra-curricular
> projects is an understatement, and risk-aversion is a key form of
> self-defence. I know many gamedev's who are frequently expected to
> choose between their life and families, or their jobs.
>

Geezus, that garbage is still going on? "EA Spouse" alone was well over 
a decade ago. That, and all the many, many other examples (often less 
extreme, but still entirely unacceptable IMO) was exactly the reason I 
decided at the last minute (in college), to change my long-standing 
plans and not pursue a career in that industry after all.

Several *years* ago, I was under the impression that problem had finally 
been changing? Is that not so?

> If they can't see the package and toolset nicely integrated, they
> can't imagine the workflow as realistic. I often make the point how
> important VisualD is, and I don't say that lightly, it is everything
> to this community. And I must re-iterate, it's a _gigantic_ community!
>

Yea. Even as a non-IDE user (but former Visual Studio fan), I do 
sympathize with that. Naturally it's an unfortunate chicken and egg 
problem. Those who want it the most aren't really contributing 
(can't/won't/etc/whatever, either way it just hasn't been happening 
AFAIK), and the rest of us are still too busy scratching our own itches 
(and arguing with Walter/Andrei ;), myself *not* excluded).

But here's the part I have trouble understanding. Actually, I haven't 
been able to get it out of my mind all day:

Look at Frostbite 3, the entire front-to-back of it, from authoring to 
runtime. Look at Unreal Engine 4. And look at...whatever crazy tech 
Rockstar must have had for GTA5 (and it runs playably on a *PS3*?!). And 
everything that goes into any MMO. And Steam/SteamBox. Etc.

That is some *crazy*, impressive, *herculean*-effort stuff. CLEARLY, 
significant parts of the game industry genuinely understand the 
importance of investments into technology. And yet...all the complaining 
they do about C++ and they *still* won't write the language they want? 
Or even take one that's close and bring it up-to-snuff? Undergrad 
students write their own languages! It almost sounds like an army of 
Conan the Barbarians complaining that a 5lb sack of potatoes is blocking 
their way.

Granted, I don't mean to trivialize designing/writing/maintaining a 
language. I know it's non-trivial even compared the impressive tech the 
industry does produce. But, to my mind, it still just doesn't add up. 
I've been trying to wrap my brain around it all day, and I just don't 
get it.

I've be very interested to hear your perspective on that. Is the idea of 
language design or compiler front-end just intimidating? Is LLVM 
unknown/unused? Maybe it does get pitched, but so far no manager's gone 
for it? Something else?