A Perspective on D from game industry

[Manu via Digitalmars-d]

On 16 June 2014 15:46, Nick Sabalausky via Digitalmars-d
<digitalmars-d at puremagic.com> wrote:
> On 6/15/2014 9:55 PM, Manu via Digitalmars-d wrote:
>>
>> On 16 June 2014 05:53, Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d
>> <digitalmars-d at puremagic.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 6/15/2014 12:27 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It really gets me that the same industry which created Frostbite 3,
>>>> Unreal
>>>> Engine 4, GTA5, Steam (obviously all enormous investments), mostly done
>>>> *in* C++
>>>> which makes them that much MORE effort, will bitch *soo* much about C++
>>>> and
>>>> STILL won't get off their asses enough to write, or even contribute to,
>>>> a
>>>> mere
>>>> language.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It's all about comfort zone. It is much easier to continue doing what one
>>> is
>>> familiar with than to try something new.
>>>
>>> It's also fair to say that some people have learned D, and gone back to
>>> C++.
>>
>>
>> I think the reason is mostly like I said in my other post; that
>> gamedev is a strictly closed and proprietary industry. Open Source is
>> a synonym with "flakey, barely working, non-windows-compatible,
>> probably-linux-nonsense, rubbish", if you ask most gamedev's. They
>> don't understand OSS, and the industry doesn't support any knowledge
>
>
> Interesting. That explains a chat I had a few years back, that had been
> puzzling me ever since, with a gamedev guy. I'd known him for a long time,
> and I *know* he's a very intelligent guy, but when the subject changed to
> OSS, suddenly it felt like, uhh, *ahem*...like the LA Times was trying to
> tell me about Nintendo's PlayStation 4 ;). *Zero* awareness of the real-word
> commercial contributions to OSS (Almost as if Mozilla didn't even exist).
> But I *knew* this guy was smart enough to know better. I just couldn't
> figure it out.
>
> But if that's a prevalent belief in the industry, then that would explain
> what felt like an almost surreal conversation.

If you ask the average programmer, chances are they'll have a strong
opinion on the matter, probably based on nothing more than hearsay.
Sadly, for such a huge industry, it fosters some really immature engineers.


>> in the field. I think this is changing, but it hasn't pervasively
>> affected gamedev culture yet...
>>
>
> I've been watching Unity3D pretty closely as of late, and I predict that it,
> plus it's Asset Store (or similar competitors) are going to start forcing
> the issue of AAA collaboration/openness more and more. That company seems to
> be built, in no small part, on putting indies closer and closer to competing
> with AAAs. And they have a history of making some real eyebrow-raising steps
> in that direction, with no signs of slowing down.
>
> I'm convinced Epic's already taken notice of that, as UE4 seems to be
> directly targeted at both Frostbite and Unity (Not that Frostbite has gone
> commercial, AFAIK).
>
> Related to this whole topic of openness in gamedev, Slightly Mad's Project
> C.A.R.S. is really going to be something to keep an eye on. I'd imagine the
> success or failure of that could very well trigger at least a few ripples.

I think these sorts of ripples are starting to have some significant
effect, but it's not pervasive yet.
Many companies and engineers don't take the time out to look at the
bigger picture. It can take quite some time to invade their mind-sets.


>> To say that they literally have no time to spend on extra-curricular
>> projects is an understatement, and risk-aversion is a key form of
>> self-defence. I know many gamedev's who are frequently expected to
>> choose between their life and families, or their jobs.
>>
>
> Geezus, that garbage is still going on? "EA Spouse" alone was well over a
> decade ago. That, and all the many, many other examples (often less extreme,
> but still entirely unacceptable IMO) was exactly the reason I decided at the
> last minute (in college), to change my long-standing plans and not pursue a
> career in that industry after all.
>
> Several *years* ago, I was under the impression that problem had finally
> been changing? Is that not so?

Well, depends who you ask. Some have worked it out and acted on it,
others have worked it out and don't have the luxury to act (or face
terminal thread to their company).
I think it's getting better slowly, but that's coming at the cost of
big game studios failing all over the world, resulting in a high level
of occupational burnout, and employees so badly scarred they will
never work like that again, which re-enforces the movement ;)
There's a serious problem when companies business models depend on
working their staff into the ground to remain competitive against the
competition. It's a race to the bottom, and plenty of companies won
the prize...


>> If they can't see the package and toolset nicely integrated, they
>> can't imagine the workflow as realistic. I often make the point how
>> important VisualD is, and I don't say that lightly, it is everything
>> to this community. And I must re-iterate, it's a _gigantic_ community!
>>
>
> Yea. Even as a non-IDE user (but former Visual Studio fan), I do sympathize
> with that. Naturally it's an unfortunate chicken and egg problem. Those who
> want it the most aren't really contributing (can't/won't/etc/whatever,
> either way it just hasn't been happening AFAIK), and the rest of us are
> still too busy scratching our own itches (and arguing with Walter/Andrei ;),
> myself *not* excluded).
>
> But here's the part I have trouble understanding. Actually, I haven't been
> able to get it out of my mind all day:
>
> Look at Frostbite 3, the entire front-to-back of it, from authoring to
> runtime. Look at Unreal Engine 4. And look at...whatever crazy tech Rockstar
> must have had for GTA5 (and it runs playably on a *PS3*?!). And everything
> that goes into any MMO. And Steam/SteamBox. Etc.
>
> That is some *crazy*, impressive, *herculean*-effort stuff. CLEARLY,
> significant parts of the game industry genuinely understand the importance
> of investments into technology. And yet...all the complaining they do about
> C++ and they *still* won't write the language they want? Or even take one
> that's close and bring it up-to-snuff? Undergrad students write their own
> languages! It almost sounds like an army of Conan the Barbarians complaining
> that a 5lb sack of potatoes is blocking their way.
>
> Granted, I don't mean to trivialize designing/writing/maintaining a
> language. I know it's non-trivial even compared the impressive tech the
> industry does produce. But, to my mind, it still just doesn't add up. I've
> been trying to wrap my brain around it all day, and I just don't get it.
>
> I've be very interested to hear your perspective on that. Is the idea of
> language design or compiler front-end just intimidating? Is LLVM
> unknown/unused? Maybe it does get pitched, but so far no manager's gone for
> it? Something else?

Well, first hurdle, closed platform holders provide tooling for their
platforms. XBox360 has arch-specific instructions, which aren't widely
supported in GCC/LLVM backends. Same goes for Nintendo and Sony used
to be a problem, but got past that with the PS3.
Secondly, there isn't really budget allocated for the would-be compiler team.
Perhaps there should be, but it would be an unconventional move by the
first mover, and games is so risk-adverse; good luck trying to
convince the suits to get on board with that...
Finally, games are so complex that most staff available tend to become
highly specialised. There are usually a relatively small number of
generalists capable of such a task in any one company, and such staff
tend to find themselves becoming mission-critical resources, often
exploited to burnout ;)

I'm heavily generalising, obviously every company is different, but
it's a hard industry to manifest the right set of circumstances where
the idea would be taken seriously.

It's been done before though. Insomniac were well known for their
invention of their internal language 'goal' used by designers and
scripters to produce game logic. It generated a lot of discussion, but
most people dismissed the idea stating that they didn't have the same
resources available that insomniac had, and Lua eventually won that
war.