OT: 'conduct unbecoming of a hacker'

[Ola Fosheim Grøstad via Digitalmars-d]

On Thursday, 11 February 2016 at 14:53:37 UTC, Joakim wrote:
> It was not always high-profile, it started off with one guy and 
> grew big through the same decentralized process.

It was fairly popular among students even back when it was not so 
great. This is not so atypical. Someone fills a void, then it 
grows. The real enabler was getting access to machines that had 
MMUs.

> The loci guy, just a couple years out of university did it, 
> surely you could too, if nobody else is getting it right.

I could, in theory. But that would make it my only hobby...

> software_.  So he agrees with you that he isn't some great 
> leader, and notes that what's important is the decentralized 
> process, where there is _no clear vision_.
>
> Now, you're right that copying UNIX is easier than coming up 
> with an entirely new technical design, but he claims that the 
> UNIX guys themselves didn't "design" it, that that was an 
> evolutionary, decentralized process also.

I find that difficult to follow. A Unix kernel is a pretty clear 
vision...

But Solaris was a much more advanced OS than Linux was, geared 
towards more complicated setups. I don't think the design of 
Linux is a major factor, as long as it worked reasonably well.

Linux proliferate because it is the path of least resistance and 
high installed base. Distributions like Slackware and Debian were 
probably very important. It's not like end user cared about the 
kernel all that much. They wanted convenient distributions.

I think people put too much weight on the kernel. It is not all 
that special.

> compare results.  Perhaps that will lead to several different 
> GCs shipping with D, tuned for different loads.

Well, the problem is that the language itself does not lend 
itself to effective GC.

If you have a modular compiler, well structured and documented, 
then it would make sense to change the semantics to see what the 
effect is.

> That's all well and good, but it doesn't answer the question: 
> how did they succeed without prior consensus, which Linus 
> claims was never there?

I have no idea what he means. The basic conceptual design of a 
monolithic Unix kernel is rather well established.

> Right, it's a question of whether we stop everything and take a 
> thorough bath, or clean a little here and there on the go.  
> There is refactoring constantly going on, and documentation is 
> always tough for OSS projects.

Yes, but I see people repeatedly state in the forums that they 
they want to try do some work on the compiler, but that they find 
the code badly structured, undocumented and the process difficult 
to grasp...

So it probably will pay off, if they actually mean it. For 
everyone that voice an opinion we probably can add another 5 that 
choose to be silent?

> I mean it's still a scripting language used for teaching, 
> scripting, and webapps.  Almost nobody is using it for 
> application programming, ie anything outside that scripting 
> niche, say for mobile apps.

Yes, that's true. Although many people use Python in their 
workflow as a supporting language or even for meta-programming, 
like generating source for other languages.

> He noted that the UNIX vendors failed because they were highly 
> specialized for certain corporate niches, unlike linux or 
> Windows, and couldn't survive a collapse of that niche, because 
> they weren't general enough to survive in new niches.  
> Similarly, I'm saying D shouldn't specialize for the same 
> reasons.

I don't think it is comparable, Sun sold hardware and consulting. 
When the hardware market is undermined by commodity they were 
left with consulting.

It is better for a business to stay focused, and then sell that 
aspect of their business when the market is shrinking. Sun was 
also not dissolved, it was picked up and integrated with Oracle, 
who benefits from Sun's assets. Microsoft is not a very good 
counter example either. Nor HP or Motorola. Reorganizing 
fractured businesses is even more difficult, I would think. It 
basically means you are trying to make sense of many businesses 
at once, instead of managing one...

People are not looking for a general purpose language. They are 
looking for a solution to their particular problem area...

Go
Rust
Swift

All fairly specialized and gaining ground.