The issue with D...

[Rubn]

On Saturday, 2 February 2019 at 16:43:34 UTC, Ecstatic Coder 
wrote:
> On Saturday, 2 February 2019 at 15:43:56 UTC, Rubn wrote:
>> On Saturday, 2 February 2019 at 14:36:00 UTC, Andre Pany wrote:
>>> On Saturday, 2 February 2019 at 13:18:08 UTC, evilrat wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, 2 February 2019 at 12:11:56 UTC, bauss wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Also look forward to the future when you don't need to 
>>>>> install Visual Studio to get the linker as it will ship 
>>>>> with DMD (If it doesn't already? It's been a while since 
>>>>> I've checked.)
>>>>
>>>> It is. But there is another problem. D is a SYSTEM 
>>>> programming language, not just some productivity language. 
>>>> It means there is still dependency on the system libs! Heck, 
>>>> even Rust given up with jemalloc in favor of system 
>>>> allocator by default, if this says something...
>>>> Of course the problem with packaging the libs with compiler 
>>>> installation can be solved by using same approach MinGW did, 
>>>> like people say, or even using the MinGW libs if it is 
>>>> possible.
>>>
>>> Mingw libs and headers are also included in recent dmd. 
>>> Except of rare cases you may not need anymore to install vs 
>>> or build tools.
>>>
>>> Kind regards
>>> Andre
>>
>> I don't get people complaining about and they are usually 
>> misinformed as well. You can install VC++ for 1.5 GB using the 
>> Build Tool install. Of that 1.5 GB 1 GB are library files and 
>> most of that is for the static libraries for the runtime. The 
>> last time this came up someone was developing on a cheap 
>> tablet or something with 16 GB of space that isn't expandable.
>
> I think that the reason why people complain is that not 
> everybody thinks in the same way as you.

Never said otherwise, I can have my own opinion and people can 
have theirs and I can have the opinion that their opinions are 
silly.

> Seriously, the last time I had to install D on my freshly 
> reinstalled Windows partition, I almost gave up before 
> finishing the installation procedure, because it once seemed I 
> was doomed to unavoidingly install the X GB of Visual Studio 
> environment (or its build tools, same problem) just to install 
> a small D compiler needed to build my tiny single-file tools 
> (Basil, Pendown, etc) on Windows.

Well at least you said "X GB" instead of just fabricating an 
incorrect number like everyone else :). And how did you get that 
small compiler to work in the first place? I guess you've never 
had to install your Windows operating system. I can only imagine 
you complaining about having to install a 20 GB operating system 
just to be able to install a small D compiler to build a tiny 
single-file tool. The D compiler can be small and your tool and 
be tiny because the complexity of what is actually going on is 
hidden from you, you don't have to worry about it. But alas 
people still complain with horrible metaphors.

> By luck, I tried the Mingw option, which worked and this saved 
> my day, but I think you have no idea how unlikely people will 
> click on this Mingw option, and how this little install menu 
> design can turn off people from D if they were just trying to 
> experiment it as a Python or Ruby alternative, because **not 
> everyone** is willing to start that LONG and HUGE Visual Studio 
> thing just to try the finally-not-so-swift D compiler which 
> seems to need it.

Lol, I can't help but laugh "long" and "huge" visual studio 
thing. As I sit here downloading a 40 GB file, you have no idea 
the meaning of long or huge. What you need are the VC++ runtime 
libraries and the linker. Visual Studio is an IDE, they are two 
different projects and you don't need the IDE to compile and link 
programs on Windows.

There's your problem, you are comparing D, a language that 
compiles to native machine code with interpreted languages that 
are specifically designed to be overly simplistic and go to great 
lengths to hide operating system and architecture specific 
problems. Hardly a fair comparison and D will probably never be 
as simple to use as those, as you don't need any development 
system libraries to use those languages. That's the benefit of an 
interpreted language.

> IMO, the two most urgent things you should improve to avoid 
> immediately pushing people away from their curiosity about D is 
> :
>
> 1/ make D's web site landing page show D advantages from the 
> user point of view : why D would be better than Python etc to 
> make file processing scripts, GUI applications, web servers, etc

Have you even been on the front page? Literally the first example 
I was met with:

https://dlang.org/

"Start a minimal web server"

#!/usr/bin/env dub
/+ dub.sdl:
name "hello_vibed"
dependency "vibe-d" version="~>0.8.0"
+/
void main()
{
     import vibe.d;
     listenHTTP(":8080", (req, res) {
         res.writeBody("Hello, World: " ~ req.path);
     });
     runApplication();
}


> 2/ make the installation process quick and easy : you download 
> a <50MB installer executable, click install, and in less than 2 
> minutes you are ready to go.
>
> For 1, you should really consider putting this text on the 
> landing page :
>
> "D is a powerful and expressive language which compiles 
> directly to efficient, native machine code.
>
> It is the culmination of decades of experience implementing 
> compilers for many diverse languages and has a unique set of 
> features:
>
>     high level constructs for great modeling power
>     high performance, compiled language
>     static typing
>     direct interface to the operating system API's and hardware
>     blazingly fast compile-times
>     memory-safe subset (SafeD)
>     maintainable, easy to understand code
>     gradual learning curve (C-like syntax, similar to Java and 
> others)
>     compatible with C application binary interface
>     limited compatibility with C++ application binary interface
>     multi-paradigm (imperative, structured, object oriented, 
> generic, functional programming purity, and even assembly)
>     built-in error detection (contracts, unittests)"
>
> Followed by THREE examples :
>
> 1. a very simple one which shows D basic syntax "a la 
> JavaScript", by showing how to declare an string array, 
> initialize it with [ "apple", "banana", "orange" ], how to 
> iterate on them, print them, etc
>
> 2. a small "hello world" web server example (the one using 
> vibe.d you see IF you select that example)
>
> 3. a small GUI example (opening a window with a menu, two radio 
> buttons and a scroll view, using dlangui)
>
> All directly visible, with a small text explaining how it is 
> easy to :
> 1. make JavaScript/Python/Ruby like file scripting
> 2. easily develop web servers with vibe.d
> 3. easily develop multiplatform (Win/Mac/Linux) desktop with 
> dlangui (which rocks btw)
>
> And for the second point, about the installer, put the quick & 
> easy installation option (Mingw) above and selected by default.
>
> Or completely ignore those advices, and be happy what you think 
> is already perfect for D's newcomers :)

It's not really my decision and I never said anything was good 
about what D is already doing. It needs to chuck that optlink 
linker garbage into the bin where it belongs.