Some of us essentially want "C++ done right".... D does is currently the closest thing to this that I am aware of.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 4:34 AM, Paulo Pinto <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:pjmlp@progtools.org">pjmlp@progtools.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Am 11.12.2011 19:18, schrieb Manu:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="im">
On 11 December 2011 15:15, maarten van damme <<a href="mailto:maartenvd1994@gmail.com" target="_blank">maartenvd1994@gmail.com</a><br></div><div class="im">
<mailto:<a href="mailto:maartenvd1994@gmail.com" target="_blank">maartenvd1994@gmail.<u></u>com</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
2011/12/11 Paulo Pinto <<a href="mailto:pjmlp@progtools.org" target="_blank">pjmlp@progtools.org</a><br></div>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:pjmlp@progtools.org" target="_blank">pjmlp@progtools.org</a>>><div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
Am 10.12.2011 21:35, schrieb Andrei Alexandrescu:<br>
<br>
On 12/10/11 2:22 PM, maarten van damme wrote:<br>
<br>
Just for fun I<br>
wanted to create a program as little as possible,<br>
compiled without<br>
garbage collector/phobos/... and it turned out that<br>
compiling without<br>
garbage collector is pretty much impossible (memory<br>
leaks all around the<br>
place in druntime). dynamic linking for the d standard<br>
library would be<br>
a great new option for a dmd release in the future :).<br>
<br>
<br>
Using D without GC is an interesting direction, and dynamic<br>
linking<br>
should be available relatively soon.<br>
<br>
<br>
Andrei<br>
<br>
<br>
As a long time beliver in systems programming languages with GC<br>
support<br>
(Modula-3, Oberon, Sing#, ...), I think allowing this in D is<br>
the wrong direction.<br>
<br>
Sure provinding APIs to control GC behavior makes sense, but not<br>
turn it<br>
off, we already have enough languages to do systems programming<br>
without GC.<br>
<br>
<br>
I was only trying it "for the fun of it", not to be used seriously.<br>
D should always have it's GC support built-in and have some<br>
functions to control it's behaviour (core.memory). But I think that<br>
D, beeing a systems programming language, should also be able to be<br>
used without GC. I don't mean phobos to be writtin without a GC in<br>
mind but druntime should be compilable with something like a -nogc<br>
flag that make it usable without GC.<br>
<br>
There are a lot of users out there who think that a GC produces<br>
terribly slow programs, big hangs while collecting,... (thank java<br>
for that. Right now the java GC has been improved and it's extremely<br>
good but the memory stays :p)<br>
Letting them know that D can be run without GC can be a good point.<br>
If they don't like it, they can turn it off.<br>
<br>
<br></div></div><div class="im">
That's got nothing to do with it. People who seriously NEED to be able<br>
to use the language without the GC enabled are probably working on small<br>
embedded systems with extremely limited resources. It's also possible<br>
that various different resource types need to be allocated/located in<br>
different places.<br>
Also, In many cases, you need to able to have confidence in strict<br>
deterministic allocation patterns. You can't do that with a GC enabled.<br>
I'm all about having a GC in D, obviously, but I certainly couldn't<br>
consider the language for universal adoption in many of my projects<br>
without the option to control/disable it at times.<br>
If I can't write some small programs with the GC completely disabled,<br>
then I basically can't work on microprocessors. It's fair to give up the<br>
standard library when working in this environment, but druntine, the<br>
fundamental library, probably still needs to work. Infact, I'd<br>
personally like it if it was designed in such a way that it never used<br>
the GC under any circumstances. No library FORCED on me should restrict<br>
my usage of the language in such a way.<br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
In my experience programming embedded systems in highly constrained environments usually means assembly or at most a C compiler using lots<br>
of compiler specific extensions for the target environment.<br>
<br>
I fail to see how D without GC could be a better tool in such enviroments.<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br>