<div dir="ltr">On 1 September 2013 23:18, Andrej Mitrovic <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:andrej.mitrovich@gmail.com" target="_blank">andrej.mitrovich@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="im">On 9/1/13, Manu <<a href="mailto:turkeyman@gmail.com">turkeyman@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div><div class="im">> ** If you want to link against any other libraries.<br>
<br>
</div>Only if you want to do it statically, but you don't need to mess with<br>
COFF for DLLs, most of these libs you've listed can build either<br>
statically or as a DLL.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You mean dynamically loading DLL's, and finding/hooking up the symbols manually?</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class="im">
On 9/1/13, Manu <<a href="mailto:turkeyman@gmail.com">turkeyman@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div><div class="im">> Most of who? The D devs? You all reject auto-complete and debuggers?<br>
> How do you get any work done?<br>
<br>
</div>Well, we do get things done:<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.ohloh.net/p/dmd/commits/summary" target="_blank">http://www.ohloh.net/p/dmd/commits/summary</a><br>
<a href="http://www.ohloh.net/p/libphobos/commits/summary" target="_blank">http://www.ohloh.net/p/libphobos/commits/summary</a></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I was joking.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class="im">
On 9/1/13, Manu <<a href="mailto:turkeyman@gmail.com">turkeyman@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div><div class="im">>>> - Deprecate DMD makefiles. Seriously! Insist that contributors use the<br>
>>> IDE bindings to work on DMD.<br>
>><br>
>> Not gonna happen.<br>
>><br>
><br>
> Reconsider.<br>
<br>
</div>How is deprecating makefiles easier than making whatever IDE that<br>
you're using just call a 'make' command when you click a button? Even<br>
VS comes with nmake and friends.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It's basically a hack though. It interferes with the dependency chain, and rebuild efficiency. Has some other weird side-effects too.</div><div>But even it it did to that, the experience that they would be confronted with is broken auto-completion, and debugging issues.</div>
<div>It's pretty shit that it stands to end-users to report bugs of this kind, when the devs working with this code every single day could catch loads/most of the common ones themselves just by working in the end-user environment for a while.</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="im">
On 9/1/13, Manu <<a href="mailto:turkeyman@gmail.com">turkeyman@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div><div class="im">>> Slowing us down won't help anyone.<br>
><br>
> I'd argue that it would; inflicting the pain of trying to be a productive D<br>
> user on the developers will certainly highlight the importance of the<br>
> issue.<br>
<br>
</div>It would only make people leave the community, just like Tomasz<br>
Stachowiak (h3r3tic) left, and now I've learned Michel Fortin is also<br>
not using D anymore.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think this argues my point for me...</div><div>This stuff should be top priority!</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
Anyway it's not like we're not aware of the issues, these things are<br>
brought up in the newsgroups every other day. But the only way to fix<br>
the situation is: file bugs, contribute with pull requests.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Or enforce that the devs actually experience the end-user experience. Then they'll know what the problems actually are, have a realistic perspective of their productivity impact, and might take them more seriously.</div>
<div>I think it would have a tendency to change the perceived priority.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class="im">
On 9/1/13, Manu <<a href="mailto:turkeyman@gmail.com">turkeyman@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div><div class="im">> I'm really don't like bugzilla as an end-user, but I'm not performing<br>
> searching actions.<br>
> As a reporter, I find it's needless friction between me and reporting bugs,<br>
> and I consequently report perhaps half as many bugs as I would otherwise,<br>
<br>
</div>See I don't understand this. You want everyone to work on the things<br>
you're most interested in (IDEs), but you can't bother reporting bugs.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I'm just saying it how it is, or at least, how it was perceived in this instance by a room full of new D users, all professionals, mostly senior or lead programmers with some sway in their companies.<br>
</div><div>None of the others could be bothered creating yet-another-webpage-account to log bugs they encountered. I suggested they do so a few times. I was promptly ignored.</div><div>It's just that manually logging in to non-ajax websites is so last decade. People are growing very weary of creating and managing accounts on every website they visit.<br>
</div><div><br></div><div>I definitely feel this is a worthwhile weekend's experience to share. Take it or leave it.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class="im">
> Are you saying I should have told everyone to set up their machines before<br>
> coming?<br>
<br>
</div>Well look, you've obviously used D in a 64bit environment (so you've<br>
had to set this up yourself at least once), so I don't understand how<br>
you've managed to lose 6 hours on it. :)<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">Actually, previous times I've used it, it did 'just work'. This time it didn't. I was surprised (and a tad embarrassed).</div><div class="gmail_extra">
<br></div><div class="gmail_extra">About 6 hours was lost trying to work out what the problems were, then configuring it on everyones machines, then making sure everyone had Visual-D, link issues against the libs we were using, some issues with the particular version of the MS CRT that DMD seemed to really want to link and external libs wanting a different CRT (I couldn't find how to configure it for other CRT's), then Mono-D on the non-windows machines, then OSX issues; GDC was the first compiler that user found, Mono-D had problems, eventually gave up and switched to DMD... trying to convince people that it would be better in the long run ;)</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">It's definitely not a 1-click install and get to work.</div></div>