std.container & ranges

[Max Wolter]

On 10/30/2011 9:28 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
> On Sunday, October 30, 2011 20:53:02 Max Wolter wrote:
>> Hello there.
>>
>> Thank you very much for the explanation.
>>
>> However, while I really liked the concept of ranges in Andrei's book and
>> a lot of it seems intuitive and faster than using iterators, I can't
>> shake the feeling that in this case, it's just unnecessarily convoluted.
>>
>> Maybe it's just the fact that the container library is still very basic,
>> but I don't think I should go through such a complicated procedure to
>> remove an known element from a list. It's just not a "very simple" or
>> intuitive solution, which is something I came to love D for thus far.
>
> You would be doing exactly the same thing in C++ except that it would be with
> an iterator rather than a range. You would use find to find the iterator to the
> element that you wanted and then you'd pass that to the list's erase function.
> It is only more complicated in D in that you get a range which _starts_ with
> the element that you want (essentially, you get the iterator to that element
> plus the end iterator for the list), so if you want to remove only the first
> element, you take it from the front of the range. Other than that, it's the
> same as in C++. You can't remove an element from a list in C++ by giving that
> element to the list anymore than you can in D. In both cases, you need an
> iterator or a range.
>
> So, in comparison to C++, there's no significant difference. Now, Java does have
> a remove function which will take an element and remove the first occurence of
> that element from a list, and we could theoretically add one, but why? It
> would just be duplicating the functionality that find already gives. Java
> doesn't use iterators the way the C++ does, and it doesn't have ranges, so it
> _can't_ have a find function the way that C++ and D do, but D can. And in some
> cases, find can do it more efficiently than your loop could have.
>
> I grant you that if you're not used to using find like this in C++ (and far,
> far too many C++ programmers use loops instead of find - in part because pre-
> C++11, there were no lambdas and any time you need a custom comparison
> function, it's a pain to get one), then it's not immediately intuitive, but
> it's far more flexible and powerful than removing elements by giving the
> element to a remove function on the list. And if you really want to use a
> loop, then you still can. You just can't use foreach.
>
> for(auto r = organism[]; !r.empty; r.popFront())
> {
>      if(r.front.x == x&&  r.front.y == y)
>      {
>          organism.stableLinearRemove(take(r, 1));
>          break;
>      }
> }
>
> but that's a lot more verbose than simply using find, and as I said, in at
> least some cases, find can be more efficient than simply looping, since it's
> optimized for finding elements.
>
> - Jonathan M Davis

Hello again.

I've read all further replies in this thread, but it seems to me this is 
the most appropriate place to respond.

Simply put, all of those options are too verbose. If what you want to do 
is simple, the syntax should also be simple, this is what I love about 
D. As a side-note, I don't come from Java, but I still expect a 
container to be able to remove an element by passing it to a method. The 
verbosity and the details of this operation should be hidden in the 
implementation of the method and I shouldn't need to know about the 
details. Otherwise, I could just as well implement my own container.

/Max