DeRailed DSL (was Re: compile-time regex redux)

[Andrei Alexandrescu (See Website For Email)]

kris wrote:
> Andrei Alexandrescu (See Website For Email) wrote:
>> kris wrote:
>>
>>> Andrei Alexandrescu (See Website For Email) wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> I think there is a lot of apprehension and misunderstanding 
>>>>>> surrounding what metacode is able and supposed to do or simplify. 
>>>>>> Please, let's focus on understanding _before_ forming an opinion.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If that's the case, then perhaps it's due to a lack of solid & 
>>>>> practical examples for people to examine? There's been at least two 
>>>>> requests recently for an example of how this could help DeRailed in 
>>>>> a truly practical sense, yet both of those requests appear to have 
>>>>> been ignored thus far.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suspect that such practical examples would help everyone 
>>>>> understand since, as you suggest, there appears to be "differences" 
>>>>> in perspective? Since Walter brough RoR up, and you apparently 
>>>>> endorsed his point, perhaps one of you might enlighten us via those 
>>>>> relevant examples?
>>>>>
>>>>> There's a request in the original post on "The DeRailed Challenge" 
>>>>> for just such an example ... don't feel overtly obliged; but it 
>>>>> might do something to offset the misunderstanding you believe is 
>>>>> prevalent.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I saw the request. My problem is that I don't know much about 
>>>> DeRailed, and that I don't have time to invest in it. 
>>>
>>>
>>> You wrote (in the past):
>>> ====
>>> I think things would be better if we had better libraries and some 
>>> success stories.
>>> ====
>>>
>>> We have better libraries now. And we're /trying/ to build a 
>>> particular success story. Is that not enough reason to illustrate 
>>> some practical examples, busy though you are? I mean, /we're/ putting 
>>> in a lot of effort, regardless of how busy our personal lives may be. 
>>> All we're asking for are some practical and relevant examples as to 
>>> why advanced DSL support in D will assist us so much.
>>>
>>>
>>>> My current understanding is that DeRailed's approach is basically 
>>>> dynamic, a domain that metaprogramming can help somewhat, but not a 
>>>> lot. The simplest example is to define variant types (probably they 
>>>> are already there) using templates. Also possibly there are some 
>>>> code generation aspects (e.g. for various platforms), which I 
>>>> understand RoR does a lot, that could be solved using metacode.
>>>
>>>
>>> I read "Possibly there ... Could be solved ..."
>>>
>>> Forgive me, Andrei, but that really does not assist in comprehending 
>>> what it is that you say we fail to understand. Surely you would 
>>> agree? Variant types can easily be handled by templates today, but 
>>> without an example it's hard to tell if that's what you were 
>>> referring to.
>>>
>>> On Feb 7th, you wrote (in reference to the DSL discourse):
>>> =====
>>> Walter gave another good case study: Ruby on Rails. The success of Ruby
>>> on Rails has a lot to do with its ability to express abstractions that
>>> were a complete mess to deal with in concreteland.
>>> ====
>>>
>>> On Feb 7th, Walter wrote (emphasis added):
>>> =====
>>> Good question. The simple answer is look what Ruby on Rails did for 
>>> Ruby. Ruby's a good language, but the killer app for it was RoR. RoR 
>>> is what drove adoption of Ruby through the roof. /Enabling ways for 
>>> sophisticated DSLs to interoperate with D will enable such applications/
>>> =====
>>>
>>> You see that subtle but important reference to RoR and DSL in the 
>>> above? What we're asking for is that one of you explain just exactly 
>>> what is /meant/ by that. DeRailed faces many of the same issues RoR 
>>> did, so some relevant examples pertaining to the RoR claim may well 
>>> assist DeRailed.
>>>
>>> Do we have to get down on our knees and beg?
>>
>>
>> Aw, give me a break.
>>
>> Andrei
> 
> 
> Hrm ...
> 
> Perhaps it should be pointed out that some of us are going to great 
> personal expense and effort to further D in the marketplace. Because of 
> that, what you read above is both a sincere and honest effort to elicit 
> concrete assistance based upon relevant claims made (above).
> 
> Your response is not quite as helpful as it might be; but then it would 
> appear to have been intended for other effect? What we really need is 
> some assistance instead.
> 
> Thank you;
> 
> - Kris

This is Kafkian, pure and simple.

What am I supposed to reply to this, that I took a 4x cut in pay to do 
4x more work in grad school and that therefore I must be helped? Am I to 
be construed into a bad guy because I don't have the time or the 
inclination to look into your favorite project? If I don't learn RoR and 
DeRailed and consequently fail to produce evidence that code generation 
will help DeRailed, will that serve as proof that code generation is 
good for nothing? Will I be sued? Will Judge Judy prosecute me on TV? I 
didn't self-righteously ask how DeRailed can help me with the machine 
learning and natural language processing problems that I'm tackling.

Listen. I think it's great that you work on a project that you like, and 
I truly hope it will be successful, and that you will have all the fun 
in the process. As of me, I already spend too much time deciding what 
_not_ to do, so fulfilling someone else's sense of entitlement is hardly 
high on my list. I'm doing my best to participate to this community and 
to discuss things that I find interesting, with whatever arguments I'm 
capable of coming with. Just like the next guy. Please allow me to 
continue this. Thanks.


Good luck,

Andrei