[~ot] why is programming so fun?

[John Reimer]

Hello Yigal,

> John Reimer wrote:
> 
>> Hello Yigal,
>> 
>>> "pain of eternal damnation" does not exist in the bible or in the
>>> Jewish
>>> faith.
>> Maybe you should have another thorough look at the Bible... and the
>> new
>> testament. :)
>> Your choice of quoted words indeed may not be there, but the concept
>> is
>> very clear throughout the new Testament.
>> And I do wonder at your unusual representation of Satan, God, and
>> angels
>> ..  Concerning your description of Satan and his role under God, this
>> is
>> in complete contradiction to what the Old Testament (or New) says
>> (see
>> Job in old).  So I assume these are Jewish traditions compiled by
>> Rabbis
>> separately that you are referring to?
>> Incidentally, some angels do have wings: the ark of the covenant was
>> symbolic of that (also see Ezekial). ;)  Other than that, does it
>> really
>> matter if some do or don't.  :)  Perhaps you are just answering
>> popular
>> cultures representation of them.
>> -JJR
>> 
> did you even bother to read my message fully??
> did you not notice I was trying to give a _JEWISH_ perspective??
> and yes, the new testament is _not_ part of the bible. "The bible"
> means
> of course the original version 1.0 Hebrew Edition. Did you ever read
> that? I am. We are taught bible lessons in school (here in Israel)
> since
> it is an integral part of our history.
> I'm referring to the meaning in the bible _and_ the Jewish tradition
> based on it. that meaning was either lost in translation or was
> changed
> by Christian tradition. the issue is that your concepts which you
> believe are different from similar Jewish concepts.
> Did you read Job? did you read the original Hebrew version? I have at
> school. we spent a whole year on that. if you want to discuss Job
> further feel free to contact me personally.
> 
> many things in the bible require interpretation and are not clear to
> people who speak the original language (Hebrew) and yet you claim that
> your translation is more accurate? you do realize that your bible is
> translated based on Jewish interpretation, right?
> 
> the most trivial example: the English bible contains the word "Lord"
> yet the original does not. rather the word is יהוה which as I said in
> a different post no one knows how to pronounce it or what it means.
> According to Jewish translation we say אדוני when we see this word and
> this is again not accurately translated to "Lord". So, now you can
> claim something based on your version that doesn't even appear in the
> text!
> 
> Feel free to believe what you want. I do not try to convince you to
> convert or anything.
> 


I can only shrug at this, yigal (if there is a way to do so politely); and 
yes, I did read all of your post.  It's no wonder you chose to be athiest 
if you were taught these details from your Jewish Bible.  These are all unusual 
teachings, and, if you will pardon me, quite innacurate.  Indeed, I do believe 
that the hallmark of the Hebrew contribution to the Christian Bible is its 
extreme accuracy and astounding consistancy over several thousands of years 
of existance -- the Hebrew scholars were so accurate in copying the old testament 
books that there is no other book or source that is comparable.  This is 
a miracle. :)

Every discovery of more scripts continues to show this accuracy.  No other 
"holy" book has this record.   And this is why the Christian, through the 
Gospel message of the New Testament, can make such claims: Christianity merely 
claims that the conclusion of the prophecies lies in Jesus Christ as the 
Messiah.  While some interpretation will be inevitable, the Bible is actually 
astoundingly clear in its message and leaves very little to imagination for 
the reader.  And while translations to other languages always causes a slight 
loss of meaning in the original, the message comes through completely intact. 
 

Forgive me if you don't convince me immediately that you are an expert in 
these matters -- use of a few Hebrew words don't astonish me -- we all have 
access to dictionaries and texts of the Hebrew source to research these things. 
 I'm sure that you know that the Jewish tradition is to reject Jesus as the 
Messiah (and all are taught to do so from a young age) even though he fit 
all descriptions and predictions by the Jewish prophets (from his birth in 
Bethlehem to his humiliation and death).  It also doesn't surprise me if 
rabbis and other teachers have offered varying definitions of the God of 
the Hebrews.  Your offering above is likely not the only one.

However you were taught, I just wanted to note that none of the doctrines 
you noted above can be found clearly represented in the old or new testament. 
 Indeed, if you feel interpretations were how they came about, I can only 
say that they would have had to be stretched very far to do so.  The Bible 
always has had a clear definition of who God is and his plan for humanity.

-JJR