[~ot] why is programming so fun?

[John Reimer]

Hello Yigal,

> After removing all your preaching to the "only absolute god", I still
> have a few of your quotes I want to address:
> 


Yigal, I suppose the only reason you think I am preaching is because I'm 
sticking to my argument?  There is no argument if I waffle back and forth 
on a matter.  I'm only staying put because that's the best way to approach 
any such discussion.  Is it because I try /not/ to patronize and placate 
you that you don't like it?  Then I suppose my social skills are lacking 
greatly, and all I had to do is add a "might" or "maybe" here and there with 
a cajoling "you have a point" now and again?  If you prefer BCS's style, 
then that's fine.  I think he stated some excellent points.  But I feel no 
obligation to change my arguments because you prefer a different style of 
argument.

On the contrary, if I believe my worldview to be true, then I will present 
what I feel might be salient points to you.  If these points clash with another 
worldview, I try to state why they do and why the other worldview doesn't 
work: thus the words "fatal" were made.  And why not?  If that is the claimed 
consequence of rejection of this worldview, is it helpful to pretend otherwise? 
  Does that immedieately close the discussion because you want me "open-minded" 
to whatever you say?  What does it mean to be open-minded to you? You needn't 
be offended or take it personally if I say that.  If you don't believe it, 
it shouldn't matter.

You have thrust many accusations against what you perceive represents the 
christian worldview.  You also have indentified things you dislike about 
Christianity, but most of the examples have no relationship to the argument 
I put forward ( I am not a Catholic, so why would I defend their empire, 
their beliefs, or their doctrine, many of which are extra-biblical? And "science" 
has not been crushed by Christianity, but rather many important early scientists 
and researchers were Christians and gave us a solid foundation for the process 
we use today; the fact that Catholic Empire exercised massive forceful control 
on knowledge back then has nothing to do with Christianity, but rather the 
effect of powerful men, powerful empires, and corrupting ideologies -- it 
was indeed wrong; many ideologies are prone to do the same. This continues 
to happen today even in the field of science (some of the influences of governments, 
corporations, and academia have exercised some historically destructive control 
-- no apparent "religion" involved here; should we blame it all on science?): 
it's too simple a reduction to blame it all on some form of theistic belief 
system that you absolutely resolutely dislike. In fact, if I can't argue 
these things like that, then this discussion was over before it started. 
 If you don't like that I don't concede things, then this discussion also 
is over.

This form of discussion does seem quite hop scotch and makes for difficult 
debate because no one point is dwelled on or easily defendable: the accusation 
are thrown out far and wide...and then everybody just races forward without 
spending time proving them or defining terms.  That's partly my fault and 
due to my own inexperience. And there's danger there, I suppose, when things 
are kept either too informal /or/ too formal.  Also, since you seem to have 
taken my posts personally, please understand the my defense of Christainity 
was not meant to pick on you directly (in analogies or whatever), but rather 
I chose to address several posts that I had neither time or energy to answer 
separately.  Unfortunately you were the "lucky" one to receive the many arguments. 
:)

I guess there's not much more to say in this kind of atmosphere, so I respect 
your decision to end the discussion there with your last words.  

Oh, and I am surprised that you show so much deference to Islam.  It does 
appear that I've irritated you much for you to say such a statement.  You 
appear to be so annoyed with me that its "anything but Christianity! Please!". 
 That's too bad.

All the best.

-JJR