shouting versus dotting

[Andrei Alexandrescu]

superdan wrote:
> Andrei Alexandrescu Wrote:
> 
>> dsimcha wrote:
>>> == Quote from Andrei Alexandrescu
>>> (SeeWebsiteForEmail at erdani.org)'s article
>>>> The problem I see with "!" as a template instantiation is not
>>>> technical. I write a fair amount of templated code and over
>>>> years the "!" did not grow on me at all. I was time and again
>>>> consoled by Walter than one day that will happen, but it never
>>>> did. I also realized that Walter didn't see a problem with it
>>>> because he writes only little template code. I didn't have much
>>>> beef with other oddities unique to D. For example, I found no
>>>> problem accommodating binary "~" and I was wondering what makes
>>>>  "!" different. I was just looking at a page full of templates
>>>> and it looked like crap. One morning I woke up with the sudden
>>>> realization of what the problem was: the shouting. In C, "!" is
>>>> used as a unary operator. That may seem odd at first, but it
>>>> nevers follows a word so it's tenuous to associate it with the 
>>>> natural language "!". In D, binary "!" _always_ follows a word,
>>>> a name, something coming from natural language. So the
>>>> conotation with exclamation jumps at you. That's why I find the
>>>> choice of "!" poor. I believe it can impede to some extent
>>>> acquisition of templates by newcomers, and conversely I believe
>>>> that using .() can make templates more palatable. I tried using
>>>>  ".()" in my code and in only a couple of days it looked and
>>>> felt way better to me. Based on that experience, I suggest that
>>>> "!()" is dropped in favor of ".()" for template instantiation
>>>> for D2. Sean's argument that "The exclamation mark signifies an
>>>> assertion of sorts" is exactly where I'd want templates not to
>>>> be: they should be blended in, not a hiccup from normal code.
>>>> Serious effort has been, and still is, made in D to avoid
>>>> shell-shocking people about use of templates, and I think ".()"
>>>> would be a good step in that direction. Andrei
>>> Personally, I think that ".()" looks a little too much like a
>>> normal function/method call.  The "!()" syntax looks just
>>> different enough to make it easy to keep straight in my head that
>>> stuff with the "!" is a compile-time construct and stuff without
>>> it can be evaluated at runtime.
>> I'm arguing we _should_ make template code look like "normal" code,
>>  whatever "normal" is :o). We _should_ strive for "quiet"
>> templates.
>> 
>> You know what annoys the living heebiejeebies out of me? Nested
>> template instantiations.
>> 
>> This!(That!(TheOther!(crap)))
>> 
>> I have a ton + change of those. In superdan's words: intercourse
>> that.
>> 
>> 
>> Andrei
> 
> im a bit drunk. but im much obliged since my name was mentioned n
> all.
> 
> ! pisses me off too. i have an opinion. walter looked at unary ops
> that can be binary ops. first tilde. pulled tat off. ten he wanted
> the template thing. only 1 left was !. so he put that at work. right
> walt? now i never like ! because of nother reason. i always forget to
> put it. and yes it's not needed. i look @ code its unambig. then wtf
> do i need that crap !
> 
> anyhoo would be great if ! goes away. to hell with it. need to try
> asdad.(asdasd) to see how it feels. and yeah they all jump andreis
> neck whever he posts any. or walts. its funny. hold them guns folks.
> can i delete this later i wonder.

I guess this still counts as a vote! No? :o)

Andrei