OT -- Re: random cover of a range

[John Reimer]

Hello Jarrett,

> On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 10:13 PM, John Reimer
> <terminal.node at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Oh... BTW, the implication here is that I assassinate a lot of
>> characters. I would question this conclusion.  I am in no such habit,
>> although I do often assassinate my own privately.
>> 
> I was just referring to within this thread.
> 
>> I have stepped in to try to STOP altercations in here on many
>> occasions and have sometimes been direct even with those I consider
>> my friends.  I've also admitted where I have been wrong or
>> indiscrete.
>> 
>> But I must say that this is actually a little strange coming from
>> you, Jarrett, though you have improved a lot over the years.
>> 
> I'll let that one slide.
> 
>> I invite anyone here who feels so to freely state that I should
>> remove myself from the list if they so desire that such
>> confrontations not occur in the future.  No, not martyr syndrome...
>> Complete practicality in the matter. It's not worth it for me to
>> pursue it here any longer if no-one can see what I am warning
>> against.
>> 
> I don't think you should.  I think that you're usually a pretty
> level-headed guy and it frankly shocks me to see what you're doing
> here.  Why?  I don't claim to speak for anyone else, but here at least
> are my reasons.
> 


It was a gamble for what I considered an extreme situation.   I work hard 
to regulate my personality and manner here (and elsewhere), but, like I said, 
I believe somethings must be addressed... sometimes they come across completely 
lacking in elegance and discretion.  Believe me, please, when I say I care 
very much for people.  Sometimes there seems no easy way to speak what I 
believe is the truth.  I think you might understand that even more than I do.


> - Content on the Internet is, at least in the US and probably
> many/most other countries, protected by free speech.  Both the CDA and
> COPA were struck down based on first amendment rights violations.
> What bearophile has on his site is far, far tamer than just about
> anything else on the Internet, and while I don't know if that argument
> will wash with you, what he has on his site is his decision, not yours
> or anyone else's.


No, it will not wash completely.  I speak frankly to help him understand 
that this material is very closely accessible to the grand majority of people 
that come to D (of all ages).  Andrei links to his site in the Phobos2 reference. 
 If you don't see that most places are very careful to show courtesy in protecting 
others' freedom to NOT see this kind of material, I don't know what to say. 
 We'll see where D goes with this sort of leniency.  Furthermore, just because 
the internet is falling apart in some of these manners, does that mean we 
follow the general example of some of the worst aspects of it?  Where is 
D's attempt to rise above this?  Does the D design process follow such a 
poor example to guide it's own design progress?  Should it always say it's 
mistakes are far "tamer" than C++'s, therefore it's ok?  Ouch.


Secondly, the funny thing about free speech on the interent is that it serves 
more as a vehicle for the push marketers and revelers than those that use 
it responsibly.  It's not so free after all... It just gives us a very fuzzy 
feeling of "niceness".  I don't claim to know the solution to that, but I 
do /know/ the internet is getting worse and not so well in the general public's 
favour.  If you don't think laws that protect this free speech also somehow 
can aid the compromise of privacy of individuals, you are not seeing the 
whole picture of it.



> - If you want to draw comparison to the superdan/tytower incidents,
> this is far different.  They brought their foul language and racist
> attitudes to the newsgroups.  bearophile has not done or said anything
> here about anything other than D.  What you've done is dragged out his
> personal life into the public view, laughed, pointed, spoke of fire
> and brimstone, and expected others to do the same.  


Wait a minute there... you defend his free speech for public display of his 
own material and then you say my actions publicize his private affairs?! 
 Come on, Jarrett.  This is inconsistant.  Furthermore, you assume that such 
an address hurts him.  What if he doesn't see any wrong in it?  Why should 
it hurt him?  Does his conscience have something to say about it?  I hope 
at least a little, but not to hurt him... just so he understands that his 
are not the only feelings out there that are important.  There is a whole 
world out there greater than ourselves.


Nope... I merely brought the significance of it to light.  It was already 
there... somehow, indiscretely ummentioned around here as if nobody cares. 
 There's nothing to be laughed at if he is completely proud of displaying 
it publicly on the internet.   If it's laughed at, I'm sorry to hear that. 
 It's not funny.  But frankly, he displays it publicly, is confident enough 
to allow links to made in the Phobos2 reference manual etc...  so I don't 
know how you think anything I accomplish will achieve something I don't intend. 
 I do hope to put on some pressure so that it will AT LEAST be removed from 
the general public and D's radar.  That is my goal.


>Forgive me for not
> being so cruel as that.
> 


No, you've been cruel in the situations that have befitted you.  I would 
carefully consider the rebuke if it came from a person that was consistant 
in that manner. (sorry... had to be direct on this one).



> - I have heard and read the same tired story a million times about how
> moral values are decaying and the whole world is going to hell in a
> handbasket.  I read it today.  I read it in a Japanese novel written a
> millenium ago.  I read it in the Bible written longer ago than that.
> I read it in Greek writings from longer ago than even that.  And you
> know what?  It just doesn't seem to be coming true.  If anything the
> world has become far kinder and more moral as time has gone on.
> Besides, what do you care how people live when you're gone?  What say
> do you have in how people of the future will live their lives?  I am
> obviously much more socially liberal than you are.  But does that
> somehow make me a friend of the Devil?  I'd say _you_ are the one
> forcing _your_ philosophy on others in this case.
> I know that you will go to bed tonight praying for my soul.  Please
> don't.  I don't need your, God's, or anyone else's pity.  I've chosen
> my path in life just as you have yours.  God will judge me as he will,
> and I am prepared to accept any consequences (if any of that is
> actually true).
> 



Well, you got me there, Jarrett.  I seriously tried to keep this fairly practically 
leveled without steering into a purely worldview-based discussion, but you've 
stymied me. :)


Of course, I've said most of this all before.  Yes, the world is spiraling 
downward.  If you can't see the evidence in the repeated fall of past civilizations 
with all the same signs of moral decay, then there isn't much more that can 
be said to convince you of this or the process that produces that decay. 
 History tells the story very well.  Nothing is really new.  The spiral is 
definitely not upward. :)


Concerning forcing of philosophy, there is no passive side in the issue. 
 If there were, you wouldn't be able to argue with me on these points.  You 
argued free speech at the beginning of the post and then are annoyed at my 
"forcing" issues down here.  If anything, I just want people to be honest 
with themselves.  A lot of people don't want to see that they have a "side" 
or that they are forcing some kind of quasi-ethical system on anyone... but 
in fact they do just be living their lives, supporting causes, voting, speaking 
encouragement or discouragement to a friend(aquaintance,stranger), starting 
a relationship, demanding a refund, being hurt when lied to by a loved one, 
or annoyed when someone cheats you... basically living their life as they 
see fit.  You have a worldview, Jarrett.  It shouldn't be any more unfair 
if I show the inconsistancies of it when you promote it in a post then for 
this community to question Walter's or Andrei's decision for D language decisions.


I'm sorry that I come across so abrasive sometimes.  I actually appreciate 
your frankness and honesty.  If you were to meet me in person, I think you'd 
find me not so "religious" in the style that you might expect... I've long 
since left the religious culture of this day... I'm just very stubborn in 
living a clear conscience before the God I believe in and in accordance with 
the Bible's explanation of it.


Incidentally, you hit on a funny note there when you talked about me praying 
for you.  I don't like condescenion of that kind, so rest assured if I do 
so or not, I won't level that at you in such a sanctimonious manner.


Anyway,  thanks for your analysis and thoughts on the matter.


-JJR