OT -- Re: random cover of a range

[Bill Baxter]

On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 6:06 PM, Nick Sabalausky <a at a.a> wrote:
> "Bill Baxter" <wbaxter at gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:mailman.755.1234856377.22690.digitalmars-d at puremagic.com...
>> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Nick Sabalausky <a at a.a> wrote:
>>> "Bill Baxter" <wbaxter at gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:mailman.753.1234854114.22690.digitalmars-d at puremagic.com...
>>>>
>>>> George Carlin.  Chris Rock.  South Park.  Never would have been
>>>> accepted in the Leave-it-to-Beaver era.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Oh man, I would *hate* to be restricted to 50's era television shows like
>>> that. I'd feel like I was living in some crazy puritan-revival sect.
>>
>> Well, you're a product of your environment, so I guess that's not
>> really surprising.
>>
>
> That's only true to a certain extent. There are plenty of things I've spent
> years completely surrounded by and never liked, and plenty of things that I
> liked immediately upon introduction. And I'd venture to say that's true of
> most people as well.

I didn't mean it was inevitable.  Just that given environment X,
you're likely to find a bell curve around that environment's norms.
So finding someone who agrees with current norms and not ones of 50
years ago is not surprising.  More surprising would be to hear a young
person say "Oh golly gee, I sure wish we could go back to the 50's".

>>> I've felt for a while that the issue of profanity can be summed up a
>>> "People fall into one of two groups: Those who believe in the old 'sticks
>>> and stones' adage and those who don't." It takes a weak person to be
>>> harmed
>>> by words.
>>
>> I don't quite know what to say to that.   So you're saying you
>> wouldn't mind if someone stood behind you uttering profanities all day
>> long?  I would find that highly annoying and it would most certainly
>> contribute to my stress levels.  Even if it weren't profanities it
>> would be highly annoying.  So to say words can't harm you seems
>> nonsense to me.  Sure words do not cause physical injury, but are
>> physical injuries the only ones that matter?

> You're attributing more to the idea of "words" than just "words". What
> you're describing is harassment.

Or rather, you're attributing less to "words" than all that "words"
suggests.  :-)  But ok I see what you meant to say better now.

> What I'm talking about is illustrated by this:
> On some show/song/game/etc., some character says:
> "Why can't I get my CPU fan to work?!?"
> "Why can't I get my dang CPU fan to work?!?"
> "Why can't I get my fucking CPU fan to work?!?"
>
> The intent, scenario, action, everything, is exactly the same. The only
> difference is the words. No one that tunes in, listens, and remains unharmed
> by one of those is ever going to be harmed by one of the others unless
> there's something seriously wrong with them.



> Sure, words can be used in ways that can harm, but the harm doesn't come
> from the words themselves. I can do hurtful things that involve words
> without ever going near profanity. For example, go up to someone who is
> insecure about their acne and use these particular words: "I'm surprised you
> are willing to show that face in public." Of course, one could argue that
> this particular *combination* of words is profane, but even that's not true:
> I could recite that exact same arrangement to a good friend with a good
> sense of humor, or to a mask-painter who's unveiling a piece from a private
> collection they had previously been very secretive about. Same arrangement,
> same words, different acceptability-levels. Conversely, I can use profanity
> in a way that doesn't harm anyone. "Oh, fuck, I almost overslept." Words
> like "that" can be used in ways that are highly offensive, and words like
> "fuck" can be used in ways that are completely benign - any word can be used
> either way. So clearly, the words themselves can't be inherently good or
> bad.

Ok, so sounds like you've decided that swearing like a sailor is
perfectly A-OK as long as no harm is intended.   But here's the deal
for me.  I, probably like many others, spent the first 18 years of my
life having my parents and teachers tell me that that was wrong.  So
no matter what you say, my "whoa that's wrong!" sensors go off every
time I hear a profanity.  It's maybe like watching someone break in
line -- even a line you're not standing in.  You see it, and your
"that's just not right" sensors start going off.  It's not a great
harm, no, but it brings about an elevated level of stress.  Or
watching someone kick a puppy.   Or in another way it's like sitting
in a restaurant where people are smoking.  To the other smokers in the
room it probably seems like a pleasant environment but to most
non-smokers it is very annoying and something that is hard to ignore.

So maybe you say, that's your problem, get over it.  Maybe so, but I
don't really want to get over it.  There's no real redeeming value in
casual swearing.  I don't believe society is any better off with
everyone swearing at each other than it is with everyone being polite
and respectful.  If I could choose my world to live in, I'd definitely
choose the latter over the former.  I see no value in trying to push
the envelope there, like South Park does.   Which is a bummer because
South Park has some really funny stuff underneath all that cursing.
But I just can't enjoy it.  I enjoy it much more when people tell me
what happened in an episode without using all the swearing.  :-)

Maybe all this makes me some kind of freak outlier far to the right of
current societal norms, but so far I don't see swearing becoming a big
part of the nightly news or presidential addresses.  So I think it is
still not considered proper to speak in that way by the majority of
society.  What's really funny, though, is to meet people who have
learned English primarily by watching American movies.  They seem to
be under the impression that you need to put in a swear word every
sentence or so in order to sound American.

On the other hand I do *not* wish to impose my preferences on others
by force.  I believe firmly in free speech.  You can say whatever you
please.  But just do not do so under the delusion that what you say
and how you say it has no affect on others.

--bb