Any chance to call Tango as Extended Standard Library

[Steven Schveighoffer]

"John Reimer" wrote
> Hello Steven,
>> I don't see Tango and Phobos becoming more like one or the other, but
>> as others have said, there are definite sections of code that can be
>> used from both without interference.  I/O is not one of them, and I
>> don't see that changing.  But due to the open source nature, you can
>> port or re-implement features of one library into the other, so while
>> you may be choosing between two different styles, you shouldn't have
>> to choose one or the other for functionality.
>>
>> I also don't think this is a bad thing.  One of two things will
>> happen. Either one library totally dominates the other, and eventually
>> everyone starts using the more popular one (the Beta/VHS route), or
>> both libraries flourish, and due to the common runtime, can be used
>> concurrently in projects (the KDE/GNOME route).  Either way, I don't
>> see the current rift between Tango/Phobos being a major detriment to
>> D.  It will be short-lived IMO.
>>
>> -Steve
>>
>
>
> A fair analysis, but I think incomplete.  Once again, the problem has more 
> to do with the perception of new users and outsiders.  I believe those of 
> is in here, those of us who have frustrated and agonized over D over the 
> last few years are going to be in a much better position of accepting the 
> situation as it develops: we've grown with it, so our sympathies are well 
> rooted -- we may very much enjoy having the option of using either of or 
> both of two great libraries.  I can easily agree that your analysis has 
> some sense to it because of that.
>
> But, as I said before, the hardest part remains in finding a method to 
> promote it as a "good thing" to everyone else who has no real emotional 
> attatchment to the language, those who see learning a language as a 
> synonymous with learning one "standard" library (because that seems to be 
> the general history of programming languages).  Maybe I'm wrong about this 
> one (I hope I am wrong, and you are right), but I don't think it's wise to 
> completely discredit the possibility of a problem in having two popular 
> libraries at the core of D 2.0.  If the libraries do go the Beta/VHS 
> route... well that's just a mercy for D.
>
> Still trying to think positively,  of course. :)

Keep thinking positively :)  There will always be naysayers, people who 
think D sucks, no matter how many of their objections you fix, they will 
find something else to gripe about.  There's not much you can do about those 
people.  The ones I am interested in convincing are those who turn to D to 
fill a need, such as "C++ sucks, I wonder if there's something better", or 
"I like language X, but I need something that compiles to native code", or 
whatever the reason.  These are the people who are willing to invest the 
time necessary to learn the core language.  If those people, after learning 
D and about the standard library situation still turn away, then there would 
be something wrong.  But I don't think we are in that situation.  Most of 
the people in this newsgroup are in that category and have stuck it out and 
want to make D work.  Every once in a while, a fierce Phobos vs. Tango 
debate arises, and it sucks so much time out of people that they are sure it 
is the main reason people don't like D.  When you start using D, you pick a 
library, and most likely stick to it.  There are plenty of resources that 
work for both the libraries, that I don't think it's that terrible.  There 
are so many other holes in the D regime that I think the fact that you have 
a choice between two standard libraries is the least of our concern.  How 
about a good integrated IDE/Compiler/Debugger?  A visual GUI editor?  A 
better doc system?  And most of all an EASY way to install such tools. 
Following 18 different web pages on unpacking zip files and installing 
source control systems does not foster new use.  I'd say the issue brought 
up about dsource considered harmful is a huge legitimate deterrent.  It 
takes a long time to scour through all the abandoned projects to find out if 
the functionality you're looking for is implemented and maintained or not. 
I know at least one newbie that I helped learn D on IRC from knowing only 
Python that decided to implement 2 projects that had already been done but 
were buried in dsource somewhere.

Me, I don't care about the library debate, I've already picked Tango as my 
standard library.  I don't care if it's not the standard library.  I don't 
care about the brand name, as long as it does what I need it to do.  I've 
moved on to more important tasks.  If other people like Phobos, fine, it 
doesn't bother me at all.  I don't need to have a battle about it.  I just 
want to write code and have it work.  And Tango helps me do that better, so 
that was my choice.  I feel like this debate about which standard library 
wears the official crown is useless noise.  No offense to the OP, but this 
is a never-ending loop that just seems to take up too much of people's time. 
On that note, I'll bow out of the discussion.  I need to get some work done 
:)

-Steve