What's the current state of D?

[Andrei Alexandrescu]

Tyro[a.c.edwards] wrote:
> On 5/9/2009 3:38 AM, Steve Teale wrote:
>> Walter Bright Wrote:
>>
>>> Steve Teale wrote:
>>>> This is the sort of answer that will kill D. The guy comes back after
>>>> 2 years, asks a straight question, and get's told "business as usual,
>>>> we're still arguing among ourselves about what it should be".
>>>>
>>>> Maybe Tiobe is right! Lots of others may not even bother to ask. They
>>>> just visit the newsgroup, read a page of it, and conclude "same old,
>>>> same old", and go away.
>>>>
>>>> D should be D, not maybe 1.043, or let's wait a while and see what
>>>> happens with D2. Potential real users hate uncertainty. If they are
>>>> going to commit, then D must do so too.
>>> What bothers me about this sentiment is that every other mainstream
>>> language undergoes revision, sometimes major ones, but that never seems
>>> to be an excuse for people to not use it.
>>>
>>> For example, C++ is quite in flux with C++0x.
>>>
>>> The only languages that are not undergoing revision are dead ones.
>>
>> Yes Walter, but C++ went through a tedious standardization process - 
>> itself a long argument. So there was some basis for people to think 
>> that it had 'got there'.
>>
>> But to come back after 2 years and find the same stuff still going on 
>> is depressing - been there done that. OK, it didn't put me off, I'm 
>> still in there, but it bothers me. I'd be dishonest if I said otherwise.
>>
>> I am not criticizing you. I think you are doing a great job under the 
>> pressure of a slew of suggestions. But maybe a line in the sand at 
>> some point?
>>
>> OK so for those who crave stability there is D1.x, but when all the 
>> focus appears to be on D2, what level of confidence is afforded to D1 
>> users. Can a project Manager cross his heart and say that D1 will 
>> still be alive and well in five years time?
>>
> 
> This is quite interesting! Before there was D1, I can remember the same 
> requests being submitted over and over again. Tool developers complained 
> that they could not use D for anything serious because of its constant 
> state of flux. They continuously requested that a line be drawn. Shortly 
> after that line was drawn in January 2007, a good majority of the 
> community complained that it wasn't exactly what they asked for and a 
> majority of the most active members of the community disappeared into 
> thin air.
> 
> The sad thing is, even after D1 became stable following a number of bug 
> fixes, very few people used it for much of anything. Those "advocates of 
> stability" all disappeared; abandoning their tools/projects in the process.
> 
> The same thing is beginning again and it seems to me that instead of 
> something that is actually useful, people a waiting for MicroMoney or 
> some other name brand begins to invest in their own D compiler. As far 
> as I see it, there will come a time when D language will soar above all 
> the rest (not only in capability, which it already does, but also 
> commercial usage), I will continue to support it until then and well 
> beyond and I'm quite sure that I'm not the only one. For all the 
> Naysayers out there... Keep saying nay and go the hell away. D2 is just 
> where it is supposed to be. Let’s not end up in the same mess we did by 
> trying to make impatient people happy and releasing D1.
> 
> Andrew

Very well and heartfelt put.

D needs many things, but probably above all it needs the dedication of 
bright people.

I've had a great time at BoostCon, and enjoyed many interesting 
conversations with as many bright people. Beman Dawes, the originator of 
Boost and an extraordinary gentleman, gave me a little history of Boost. 
Essentially Boost has been toiling in anonymity until Dave Abrahams came 
about. Dave is a design, coding, and organizational powerhouse all in 
one. He not only contributed a great deal of design and code to Boost, 
but also managed organizational and logistics aspects, in addition to 
exercising the charisma necessary for attracting other extraordinarily 
qualified people to dedicate their prime to Boost. And it has snowballed 
ever since. It was amazing just being at Boostcon to see how much 
expertise punch those people packed.

We are lacking such a powerhouse for D. Walter is a great lone wolf kind 
of coder, but not a team organizer and charismatic leader. Things have 
been changed to the better since he has made Phobos accessible on 
dsource.org and since he released the source of the compiler. 
Integration with druntime was another great step forward (thanks Sean!) 
Soon we may convince Walter to put the entire dmd source on dsource.org, 
which would improve things even more. But the role of "Dave" for D is 
still up for grabs.

Of course it's not that easy to find that, but in the meantime there's a 
lot of good things to be done. If you do something great, sooner or 
later it will be picked up. The perfect example is Don, who became a 
prominent contributor solely through the sheer quality and quantity of 
his work. (There are many others that come to mind, but please allow me 
to stay with one because as soon as I mention more than one, I'd feel 
I'm unjust to others that I might even forget for the moment.)

So what I think D really needs is your heart and soul :o). Let me 
(re)try to make a step in that direction by reopening the Phobos czar 
position. Gregor Richards has held that position for a while but hasn't 
done anything with it. (I'm not saying this with reproach; Gregor has 
been busy with school and if I don't know what that means...) I can 
hardly imagine what someone like Dave could do with that role. So if 
anyone is interested, speak up!


Andrei