What's the current state of D?

[Leandro Lucarella]

Brad Roberts, el  9 de mayo a las 12:31 me escribiste:
> Leandro Lucarella wrote:
> > 
> > Another very *BIG* issue is lack of mainstream tools support.
> > 
> > C++98 was finished before starting C++0x. A lot of effort was made to make
> > mainstream tools to support C++. Most tools demangle C++ names (even when
> > they aren't standard!). At least GDB should be able to do that, and
> > Valgrind and GNU binutils, if you want people to be comfortable working
> > with D. There are patches here and there but nothing works out of the box.
> 
> A critical error that keeps being made.. in MOST compiled languages, the authors
> of the compilers are not the ones that are producing the eco-systems above them.
>  Even for the VM based languages, the language/compiler/runtime authors rarely
> venture much above those.  Eclipse isn't a sun invention, nor are any of the
> other development environments.  Microsoft is about the only one that produces
> an large tool chain, but the groups that do the various parts are different.
> The compiler team doesn't produce (or in many cases even use) Visual Studio.
> 
> Etc..

I know that, but the "language" should push forward in that direction.
I don't know why this happen with D, what can be made to improve the
situation, but I think putting all the attention in D2 doesn't help, and
doesn't encourage people to work on D1.

I've decided to work in D1 GC instead of D2 partially because of this.
I think D1 is a great language, very *very* close to be complete. It's
a shame to through that because D2 is cooler. For example, I can't use
D for work. I can't convince my bosses to use D when you have to compile
your own toolchain to get a debugger that works with it. C++ sucks, but
I'm stucked with that as long as it has better tools support than D. And
I think this is where D1 can start taking off, when it's ready for
busyness, because unfortunatelly is really hard to produce things for
D just as a hobby.

And why this only happen to D? Really, don't you even ask yourselves?
I think there is a "social" problem with D, or a "leadership" problem.
I think people is not encouraged to work on D1.

> So, want the tool chain to mature.. go to work.  Work with the GDB community to
> build and incorporate changes.  The same with all the things you want to see
> changed or created.

Unfortunatelly I'm putting my work in the GC now. I was so annoyed a weak
ago about not being able to use gdb, valgrind or nm with D that
I downloaded valgrind to see how hard it would be to add D support to it,
but I had to desist because I don't have the time right now.

> > I think what D1 is *really* missing is that 2 things: completeness and
> > tools support. Without that is really hard to take it seriously.
> > 
> > I think the D team should be working more in that direction before
> > finishing D2. I know is very boring comparing it to making D2, but I think
> > that is what is transmitted from D maintainers: "D1 is boring, don't pay
> > attention to it, D2 is fun, let's play with that!". And this is what
> > happening. People are playing with D2 and forgetting to finish D1.
> 
> If you've gotten the impression that "d1 is boring" is the message from whatever
> this "the d team" (team suggests many people, but there's really just a tiny few
> involved -- this isn't microsoft or sun with hundreds of worker ants) is, then
> you're impression is off.  The message is "d1 is only receiving bug fixes -- and
> only those with the right balance of risk/reward".

When I say "D team" I mean Walter, Andrei and Bartoz mostly, maybe Don and
Seam too =)

The impression is what it is. It can't be off. If something gives an
impression it doesn't matter if you don't want to make that impression,
that's the point (I know this maybe has no sense as it is written, english
is not my first language and I don't know how to explain it better).

And I think ignoring that that impression is made, when every month (or
weak!) there is a thread about it, is dumb.


-- 
Leandro Lucarella (luca) | Blog colectivo: http://www.mazziblog.com.ar/blog/
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