Java > Scala

[Walter Bright]

On 12/2/2011 12:34 AM, Russel Winder wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-12-01 at 02:09 -0800, Walter Bright wrote:
> [...]
>> I understand that. Java isn't going anywhere. I was only addressing the idea
>> that the Java bytecode is a burden for compiler developers or not.
>
> I disagree that Java isn't going anywhere.  The hassles over the last
> year with Oracle are now resolving themselves as IBM influence gains
> ground.  With the publication of the timetable and part road map for
> Javas 8, 9, 10 11 and 12, the Java community is hugely re-energized.
> The opening up of the JCP and the voting in of a couple of user groups
> to the executive committee has made a significant change to the
> management of Java.
>
> Whether this is positive we shall see.

I meant it wasn't going away. I didn't mean that it would no longer be improved.


> The Java bytecodes and JVM are no longer the fixed point they were.
> Change is now possible.  Clearly a zero address stack machine has some
> issue, I never disagreed with you on that, but I don't see it as the
> infinite brick wall you were seeming to portray it as.

I think it's a disastrous problem as it stands now. A lot of very useful things 
simply cannot be reasonably expressed in it. But if new instructions are added, 
anything is possible.


> [...]
>> I suspect Go's market is more the Java market than the C/C++ one.
>
> I don't think that is the complete story.  Go initial market is cloud
> systems systems programming.  To date this has been a mish mash of C, C
> ++ and Java with a dash of Python.  Go's marketing clearly sets it up
> against C and somewhat against Python.  They are ignoring the JVM arena
> (at least for now) as they don't see how to get traction there quickly
> enough to make things work for them.

I know their marketing is not directed against Java, but I was referring to what 
Go is technically. It's like C++ spawned Java, and C spawned Go. That stacks Go 
up against Java.


> I still think that in the short term there is no value in D trying to
> address markets currently dominated by JVM or CLR.  Much better to carve
> out a presence in an area with a lower barrier to entry.

I used to think that too, until I found out that half of D users came from the 
Java world. (The other half are from C++.)


> C++ must have done the same by now:  there must be good BLAS, and high
> level vector/matrix systems, especially with GPGPU being the driving
> force these days.

Sure, but none of that is standard C++.

> If you still have some of the codes, perhaps there is a way that this
> can be turned into something?  Clearly the Alioth shootout is one
> possible model.

I don't have anything that's up to date.