Vision for the first semester of 2016

[Rikki Cattermole via Digitalmars-d-announce]

On 26/01/16 6:07 AM, Russel Winder via Digitalmars-d-announce wrote:
> On Mon, 2016-01-25 at 21:31 +1300, Rikki Cattermole via Digitalmars-d-
> announce wrote:
>>
> […]
>> Nope just no.
>> I am only talking about newbies here.
>> They will pick distributions of Python that are all encompassing.
>>
>> http://winpython.github.io/#overview
>> When it comes to newbies who come into programming seeing from all
>> of
>> their previous experience that things like GUI toolkit just comes
>> with
>> the language they just don't care if it was provided "extra" by a
>> distribution or by the language itself. Only that they did exactly 0
>> beyond importing and using it.
>
> I'm afraid this whole view on the Python world is an old and long gone
> one. Even on Windows. Trust me on this I have been training people in
> Python since 2006. I have seen the whole scene change. Dramatically.
>
> Oh and by the way, noone actually uses the one graphics system that
> comes as standard in Python. Everyone uses PyQt, wxPython, Phoenix,
> Gtk, direct bindings to other graphics libraries.
>
> Pip is now core to everyone, even beginners use of Python. PyPI  may
> still have elements of crapness about it, but it is there, it is used,
> from Day 1 by most people learning Python.

Well whoever these people are, they are most certainly not the people 
I've seen. They wouldn't care or even want to look at PyPI.

>> During my degree, the final programming class was Python.
>> Everyone used WinPython except me. At the time pip didn't even work
>> in
>> it. Yes you heard me correct.
>
> True, but how long ago was that? Python distributes pip in the Windows
> and OSX distributions. Package-based platforms tend to package it
> themselves. In fact all the commands are just entries into the library.
> Analogy: Dub is part of Phobos. If tehre is anything to add to Phobos
> it has to be Dub.

2 years ago, but I can guarantee for students that go through that 
course and tutors, it won't be changing anytime soon.

>> When they had to use other code, they had no way or will to even try
>> what wasn't part of it and so in their eyes what they had downloaded
>> was
>> Python. Because it really does appear to be Python.
>
> Very true until four or five years ago. Now the whole situation is
> changed. Yes people go first to the standard library, but now people
> know to look in PyPI before writing their own.
>
>> Especially with the IDE and QT being part of it...
>> And right here is the problem. They expected and there it was.
>> You will see this in every language. From Java to PHP.
>
> Qt never has been and never will be a part of the Python standard
> library.
>
> Ah you agree with me: The Java folk have a huge library, some if which
> is good, much of which is dross. But the real treasure of the Java
> Platform is Bintray and Maven Central. How can anyone contemplate doing
> Web stuff without Spring Hibernate, JavaEE, all of which are separate
> libraries not in teh distribution.
>
>> […]
>>
>> And I agree with you. As long as we have the bare bones in Phobos
>> such
>> as windowing and image library we can actually fight over GUI
>> toolkits.
>> Instead of repeatedly doing the same code over and over poorly.
>
> I am afraid this is just displacement reasoning. The problem with
> graphics and D (other than GtkD, which is a very smooth operation) is
> that too many people have too many different ideas and assume everyone
> else will insist on doing their own thing. The problem is not Phobos
> here, the problem is the people not wanting to collaborate to create
> one or two things. Oh, that and resources. Whilst there is no money
> swashing around the D community (compare the Java, C++, Rust, Go,
> Python ones), there is little or no expectation of change. Given that
> all activity is volunteer activity, then what is happening will not
> change. And neither should it be forced to. On the other hand if a
> consensus could happen…

You're 100% right that it is the people problem here.
But right now, Phobos is the only way I can emphasize reuse of the core 
bare-bones libraries.