OT -- Re: random cover of a range

[John Reimer]

Hello Mike,


> There's nothing inherently wrong with any swear word. Any perceived
> offense or insult behind the words themselves is a result of
> indoctrination by our parents and teachers. And when you really want
> to insult someone, non-swear words are no less vile than swear words.
> The intent behind the words is what matters most. Getting upset over
> the words themselves is just plain silliness.
> 


True, there is more significance in the spirit behind the words such you 
don't need expletives to communicate the same thing (although using them 
does make the messsage much more severe).  There are some fair considerations 
in your and other's posts, and this has been good for me to think about more. 
 


But I disagree that it's completely about indoctrination or that the words 
are devoid of meaning.  Somebody else mentioned that every culture has its 
swear words. There is always a history behind such words, though.  So really, 
while all children are indeed indoctrinated to begin with (is there any other 
way?), yet as they grow older, many will learn the "why's" of what they were 
taught when they were young when their minds were not capable or ready to 
understand these things.  Later they may accept the reasonings or reject 
them.  Ingrained reactions may remain, however, as you suggest.  Even so, 
some indoctrinated values may still remain yet unconsidered.  This will always 
happen to all types of people in all cultures and in all worldviews.  If 
the principles behind the values are good, then I'd gather that the keeping 
of these values will remain useful and practical into adulthood.


In regards to English epletives, there's a history behind those, of course, 
which most of you know.  Some express what some might call the "baser" elements 
of life: as such their meaning is associated with the filthiness of excrement 
or urination or whatever.  In the case of the f-word, most of us know that 
it refers to the act of copulation.  Since most people rarely do any of the 
above in public (and if they do, they are usually looked at with horror), 
even so expressing these words in public is usually considered rude and offensive(or 
used to be).  Thus my argument was that society (and parents) have typically 
had a good reason for discouraging there use, and it's not completely fair 
to call it indoctrination with the implication that it was a bad thing (maybe 
that was not your implication, but it came across that way).  I'd say it 
was good training ever so much as it's good training to wash your hands before 
you eat.  This is one reason I also said that I felt it was less a matter 
of the words changing meaning (as Walter seemed to suggest in his first post 
on the topic), and more about people's manners and sensitivity changing as 
the use of expletives becomes more common-place.  I know some words change 
meaning, but these aren't the ones... not yet at least. :)   


So what we have here is a society where people are becoming so used to hearing 
and saying expletives and profanity that they no longer think of their meaning, 
even though these words retain their meaning still.  Yes, it is usually the 
less desensitized of us that get offended at hearing them.  I still associate 
them with the meanings they retain, and so I especially dislike these terms 
being used in normal conversation as much as I'd dislike seeing the content 
of their meaning.  So I believe their is a strong argument for these words 
not being completely neutral: they are an abstraction of reality. Eventually 
that abstraction might carry multiple meanings or lose meaning in the minds 
of society... but most people might think differently about their speech 
if you flung some manure at them in return for every expletive they sent 
your way.  I don't think throwing manure would eventually lose it's meaing, 
though. :D


I believe that we benefit from speaking in such a way that we edifiy our 
listeners, including the avoidance of insults with or without expletives. 
 I can't say I can see much edification in the use of expletives and profanity 
as the delivery vehicle, though, based on my reasoning above.  I've worked 
around it most of my life, and strangely, the language hasn't improved with 
the hearing of it.


Most of the people I work with have eventually figured me out and limited 
their swearing when around me; and I've been thankful for that, since it 
shows that they don't want to offend even though I don't make a big deal 
of it (well, sometimes I tease them about it).  And no, I don't go around 
forcing people to stop swearing, although I /might/ ask them to stop using 
profanity around me with a "please".


In this newsgroup, I see it as "noise" that interrupts the communication 
process for more than a few people.


-JJR