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[BCS]

Reply to hasen,

> Daniel Keep wrote:
> 
>> hasen wrote:
>> 
>>> ...
>>> 
>>> Wow, tortoisegit? Seems so bloated, look at those screen shots, it's
>>> so confusing!
>>> 
>> Wow, git cli?  Seems so bloated, look at all those commands, it's so
>> confusing!
>> 
> It *is* confusing, it doesn't claim to be intuitive, it's aimed for
> developers, they're supposed to read tutorials/man pages to know how
> it works.

No they're not. The difference between a technical and non-technical user 
is that the technical one *will* read manual if they have to. If there is 
any other choice, no program should *ever* be designed so that the user is 
forced to read the manual. Whenever possible, no matter the user, the UI 
should be intuitive. (OK I'll grant that in the technical user case some 
intuitiveness can be traded for speed of use but in this case I don't think 
their is a conflict)

> Providing a gui that maps a "pull" button to a pull command is
> confusing because GUI's are supposed to be "discoverable" and
> "intuitive".

Both GUIs and CLIs are.

> 
> No wonder I never knew how to properly use svn, I was so dependant on
> those GUIs, that I never knew what was going on under the surface.

Odd, I started using SVN via a GUI and now I rarely if ever use the CLI and 
I never had a problem figuring out what was going on under the surface.

> At least for me, the only sensible way to use svn is through the
> command line.
> 
> GUIs for svn and git are confusing because well, you're not exactly
> sure what they're doing.
> 

That is not true. I am sure of what my SVN GUI is doing. As for Git, I have 
yet to have any problem with it that were cause by it hiding what it was 
doing (the only problem I've had is it not even showing some functionality)

>> Actually, if you look at them, the dialogs are all just GUI versions
>> of the various git tools themselves.  So if you really find those
>> confusing, I can only assume you find Git itself confusing.
>> 
> Look at this and tell me it's not confusing:
> http://www.jensroesner.de/wgetgui/wgetgui.png

Is that from TortoiusGit?

>>> IMO it's wrong to just put the same command-line commands on the
>>> right-click menu, and call that a gui.
>>> 
>> Yes, because heaven forbid anyone makes our lives as developers
>> easier. After all, no developer should EVER use a simplified
>> interface when what they SHOULD be doing is memorising every command
>> and all of its switches.
>> 
>> The heresy!
>> 
> Well, if it makes your life easier, good for you.
> 

It does.

>>> The humble git-gui is much better.
>>> 
>> Integrating those commands into the shell itself so that only the
>> commands that make sense in context are shown, and actually tell the
>> user what they're going to do is much better.
>> 
>> Incidentally, I use both.  TortoiseGit is great for anything of
>> relative complexity as it actually helps you do it correctly (it took
>> me a while to work out how to properly apply patch sets without it).
>> 
>> What's more, it also helps you learn how to use git without
>> constantly screwing up.
>> 
> I think if you don't know what you're doing you'll screw up anyway. I
> used to use SmartSVN, TortoiseSVN, and probably some other GUIs, and
> every so often I would screw something up and have no idea how to fix
> it.

Yup, I known what you are talking about. But what does that have to do with 
GUIs?

> Why? because the GUI made me feel comfortable using svn without really
> knowing what the hell was going on.

I wouldn't feel very comfortable using svn or git without knowing what it's 
doing regardless of the UI.

It seems you don't like GUIs. Obviously, others doesn't agree with you.