D's greatest mistakes

[dolive]

trollollol Wrote:

> Sat, 04 Dec 2010 22:52:11 -0600, Json wrote:
> 
> > bearophile wrote:
> >> Walter:
> >>
> >>> There are a thousand languages out there. I could spend multiple
> >>> lifetimes studying them, and then have to start all over with the new
> >>> crop of languages, and accomplish absolutely nothing.
> >>
> >> It's a matter of balance.
> > 
> > No it isn't.
> > 
> >> If you want to design something new you need to keep yourself updated
> >> too.
> > 
> > Do tell what you have created to know such.
> > 
> >> Otherwise you miss new trends and
> > 
> > and <reduced fee for you if you fill this in correctly>
> > 
> >> you risk repeating the errors already done by other language designers.
> > 
> > Walter is not a language designer.
> > 
> >> This means programming a little now and then in new languages is
> >> necessary (I mean languages like C#, Scala, etc).
> > 
> > That's blantant plug for yourself! It's all good. I'm not here to diss
> > you. (You type an awful lot of stuff though. Maybe you should have a
> > focus if you don't which seemingly you don't).
> > 
> >>  Even a
> >> surgeon can't waste all the life just studying medicine books,
> > 
> > "Even"? That sounds like you are learning while posting and that's ok,
> > but don't run for office on that, cuz I will cut you down.
> > 
> >> /he doesn't study now and then, such person misses all updates and
> >> eventually becomes dangerous at the operating table.
> > 
> > That is sensationalism definitive.
> > 
> >>  So some
> >> intermediate solution must be adopted.
> > 
> > "Throw in the towel" maybe? Quit with your lies and become honest and
> > ... yes, then what.
> 
> As a computer engineer my knowledge of human sciences is quite weak, but I've noticed some simple patterns. People mostly ignore the troll posts completely, but I've found they have some value. They often follow a same pattern and get you burned if you take them too personally.
> 
> Here's one possible scenario how the trolls are born. They hear/read about D, they study a bit more, see the potential in the language, maybe even try it. At some point they run into bugs / unspecified features / missing expressivity. This is the turning point.
> 
> You see, the community has a lot of manpower (not really sure how to measure this, maybe using relative numbers). For example bearophile single-handedly generates work for maybe 10-50 compiler writers only via bug reports. On top of that come the feature proposals (analysing, refining, specifying, implementing these also requires maybe two orders of magnitude more manpower than is available). This is just bearophile, there are hundreds of other users with small and large issues. Simpler issued get constantly resolved with new compiler updates.
> 
> The language specification is problematic. Basically, there's only one person who is allowed to dictate how the language is developed. He sometimes delegates work to Don, Andrei, ... But more often, the questions remain unanswered. There are also some other risk factors: lately I've seen that Walter saves his skin with downright lies, arrogance, and ignorance.
> 
> For example in the thread about Eiffel language he told that he has no time to study Eiffel. This is a major W-T-F. The first priority of a language designer should be the best possible language spec, later comes good implementation and other issues. Once the fucked up design is set in stone, you're screwed. The justification for D in the first place was that older languages were badly screwed. Why the heck do you repeat the same mistakes.
> 
> The other big problem is the lack of transparency in the development process. How does the critique towards the process affect anything? Usually it doesn't. Maybe a year ago Walter mentioned that a 64-bit port started and will be ready in 2-6 months. People wondered why there aren't any publicly visible milestones set anywhere. Now, 12 months later the 64-bit port still doesn't exist, it will be ready in 2-6 months, people wonder why there aren't any publicly visible milestones set anywhere. Now, what is wrong with this? The process doesn't fix itself. THERE'S CLEARLY A DEFICIENCY. Why isn't it fixed? Admitting that you acted unprofessionally hurts your ego, dear ignorant Walter? Any counter-arguments to this loser talk, oh Messiah?
> 
> Where's your self reflection, Walter? Talk to other language designers, see how much they study other technologies. Languages come and go, but some of them (C, C++, Java, Eiffel, Erlang, Haskell, Lisp, some JIT/interpreted language, some exotic language such as Factor) are something you're expected to know if you ever become a language designer. You can't even compare the DbC implementations if in all your arrogance you don't have time to study a tiny bit of Eiffel. Same thing with the uniform function invocation foofoo..
> 
> If you become guitarist, you're expected to study all kinds of musical genres and use guitars from different manufacturers (Jackson, Gibson, ...), not only one self built instrument. If you become a novelist, you're expected to know/study a large deal of intertextuality, writing styles, have a large active vocabularity etc. As a language designer.. everyone screams about dynamic typing, functional languages and parallel programming. You can't just give a shit about that and focus on creating a better C++ using the experience achieved while writing C/C++ compilers. I want the language to solve the contemporary relevant problems, I don't want a better C++. Does D solve these problems? If not, why the heck it exists. 
> 
> Now, back to trolls. When the users see the social problems with the D's process, they become frustated. Some wish the best and make new improvement proposals (bearophile). The community gets annoyed because the single member puts too much stress on Walter. Some wish the best and wait silently, others start complaining in a constructive or frustated manner. Usually nothing good happens, the posts get ignored. The frustation grows. Some leave the ship, some start developing better complains and finally the frustation gets so big that you start to hate the whole project. You wish that all the negative energy will help to sink the ship and possibly some better project with a better process rises from the ashes. Is this really what you want? This is where it all leads now. You need to have enormous amount of 'faith' to 'believe' in D. Otherwise you get frustated because the broken process won't improve with the critique.
> 
> This is how human mind works. You want to revenge for the lost time spent fighting the bugs. You want to revenge the arrogance and ignorance coming from the 'great minds' of the community. Revenge is easy and satisfying. You know that you personally don't have the time/energy/skills to build a better language, but you clearly see that this incompetent dickhead fails at stuff even you can do. Thus, trolling. It's so lovely to see the stupidest shitheads in this community fall for the traps. Those sheeple without any independent opinions, head full of marketing lies. You can't shoot them, but you can waste their lifetime with stupid remarks and make them mad. Isn't it lovely to read how stupid you are. That explains why you use D. 
> 
> Walter tries to sidestep the issue by avoiding politic talk and by keeping quiet when going gets tough. Some people accept this, some think his leadership skills are pathetic and the stubbornness (not delegating more work to the community process) highly damaging to the language. As a troll, I suppose I should be most thankful to Walter for ruining the language better than anyone else. As D's follower I wished he was the best compiler writer in the world, now I'm thankful how bad he is. I couldn't wish a more non-charismatic character for the job. Sticking with old C style coding practices and the incompetence with modern development tools also helps this.


If these differences can not reach an agreement very quickly and put into practice, it is estimated D language will soon die, be dissipated by the community people.

Thanks Walter, Andrei, and all of the D languages who contributed, and hope you will not be too stubborn to listen to more opinions and suggestions of the community,make D language to achieve a balance between the best.


dolive