DMD - Windows

[Nick Sabalausky]

"Manu" <turkeyman at gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:mailman.164.1325940038.16222.digitalmars-d at puremagic.com...
>
> What would you propose I try to convince me that VS is shit and
> unproductive?
>

You're twisting my words around. That's not what I said.

> If you're going to talk about bloated heavy-weight IDE's, have you every
> tried using Eclipse? What a joke! How is it that so many years of OSS dev
> and Google backing it can produce such a bloated, crap, slow, 
> inconsistent,
> unfocused/unintegrated tool?!

Honestly, I always found all of the VS.NETs after 2003 to be just as bloated 
as Eclipse. Although given a choice, I admit I'd still use it over Eclipse 
since I find Eclipse painfully Java-centric when using it for non-JVM 
languages.

> How about XCode? I don't understand how anyone gets any work done with
> XCode, it is just soooo crap.
>

I had some brief experience with...shoot, I forget what it was called, but 
it was the immediate predecessor to XCode, the one in 10.2. I think it was 
something generic-sounding like "Project Builder" or something. It got the 
job done, but yea, I was never a fan of it.

>
> Overrated? I don't think calling industry standards overrated is a
> reasonable claim. they're industry standards because everyone uses them...
> and everyone uses them because they are industry standards.
> I've used C/C++ professionally my whole career with some C# taking over 
> for
> tools recently. I hate C++! (that's why I'm here!).. I don't hype it up
> like it's awesome, but I use it because it's industry standard, there is 
> no
> viable alternative, and even if there were, it would NEED integration with
> all my tools before I could use it professionally in a full production
> environment.
>

So...you agree that it's widespread...and you hate it...Ok, I give up: 
Exactly how is that *not* "overrated"?

> If by 'better' languages, you mean D, then I completely disagree. D 
> *NEEDS*
> an IDE, just like all the rest... and in my opinion, even more so... here
> are some reasons I find it so annoying there isn't a quality VS 
> integration
> for D (yet):
>  ** auto is used liberally in D... I should be able to hover over any
> variable and have a tool tip inform me what it actually is (this makes it
> more important that D has an IDE than even C/C++)
>  ** I don't have years of experience with the libraries, I SHOULD be able
> to press '.' and have a list of everything the library can do appear
> instantly without wasting my time trawling through the docs.
>  * I shouldn't have to guess or try and remember the name of some member
> or method... I should be able to type the first 1-2 letters, and have the
> rest of the word will appear instantly.
>  * If I don't know what a type is, or want to know about it in more
> detail, I should be able to press F1 and see documentation about the
> class/function/whatever instantly.
>  * I'm new to the syntax, and it's terribly nice when a little red
> underline appears beneath a syntax error I've just created.
>  * As projects grow, things like auto-refactor save sooo much time.
> Extremely difficult to implement reliably for C/C++, but should work
> perfectly in D...
>

I like all those features too. But I've learned that I like responsive 
editors and great langauges even *more*. Like I said, if you're familiar 
with both sides and still prefer big IDE's, fine. That's just personal 
taste, I've got no problems with that. But I tend to get the impression that 
there are a lot of "professionals" out there who would completely and 
immediately shun a language based *purely* on a lack of full integration 
with VS. Actually, I think you're one of the people who have pretty much 
told me exactly that, that there are many such professionals who would do 
that.

> C# for instance, is becoming very popular. The reason for this is that 
> it's
> just sooooo fucking productive, and that's not thanks to the language its
> self... any C# user will agree that at least 50% of C#'s special power is
> actually it's VS integration.
> The first time I used C# (knowing absolutely nothing about the language), 
> I
> opened VS, and started typing... thanks to the integration, the language
> was self-documenting and self-evident. I felt immediately productive in a
> language I hadn't even read a word about, and after a little more
> experience, I love its efficiency for writing the kind of code it's great
> at, and I always feel amazingly productive. The experience is not limited,
> or even thanks to the language, it's the whole package.
>

There was a time when I considered D and C# to be tied as my favorite 
languages (And yes, I was using VS.NET for all my C# work). Eventually, I 
became more and more frustrated by trying to work around C#'s limitations 
(Try making a basic, let alone realistically useful, set of generic 
functional tools! Without at least an IArithmetic, it's not realistically 
possible. Or do a simple reinterpret cast without diving into dark corners 
of the API.) It wasn't long before using C# felt like a full-time exercise 
in fighting the damn compiler. But at the same time, D just kept feeling 
more and more natural - even without a fancy IDE.

So, based on personal experience, I tend to call "bullshit" on the idea that 
C#/VS.NET is highly productive for anything except GUI apps that only need 
the very basic UI controls and don't do a lot under the hood. And ok, maybe 
it's highly productive compared to C++, but that sure as hell isn't saying 
much.

Honest to god, I'm *more* productive with D and Programmer's Notepad 2 than 
I ever was with C#/VS.NET. And much happier too (at least when I'm actually 
coding, anyway ;)) But I never would have discovered that if I had been an 
IDE-snob. Obviously you're not one, as you pointed out you've at least tried 
things the other way, too. But from what you describe, it appears that a lot 
of people in the industry *are* staunch IDE-snobs.

> That said, If D doesn't have an IDE, or more specifically, VS integration,
> it's off the table. Period. In a multi-user project, where all users 
> expect
> VS integration, I can't do without it.
> If it can manage to make a splash with newcomers like C# does, people will
> be really impressed, and they'll keep coming back.
>

FWIW, I have always agreed that it's good for D to have good IDE integration 
because, like you've been saying, there are people who prefer it. And heck, 
once in a while I find it useful too, so I fire it up...wait a while...do 
what I need to do...slowly..., and then go back to my usual setup.