Feedback on Átila's Vision for D

Rumbu rumbu at
Thu Oct 17 18:38:31 UTC 2019

On Thursday, 17 October 2019 at 17:56:03 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 04:50:15PM +0000, Rumbu via 
> Digitalmars-d wrote:
>> On Thursday, 17 October 2019 at 16:26:07 UTC, Atila Neves 
>> wrote:
>> > On Thursday, 17 October 2019 at 15:24:09 UTC, Rumbu wrote:
>> > > On Thursday, 17 October 2019 at 12:51:17 UTC, Atila Neves 
>> > > wrote:
>> > > > What is it about OOP in D that you find lacking?
>> > > > 
>> > > 
>> > > The general attitude "OOP is bad, let's use a struct 
>> > > instead".
>> > 
>> > I don't know what to do about this. I prefer structs myself.
>> Wonderful. Then why ask in the first place?
> He was just trying to understand where you're coming from. 
> Doesn't mean he has to agree with you.

I already stated that my opinion is irrelevant and suggested to 
take the survey as starting point for the Vision. Why ask about 
an opinion if you really don't care? Just to make me feel better 
for ten seconds? Wow, I appreciate.

> [...]
>> > > There is no language construct to use RAII or heap 
>> > > application on objects. We had scope but it was deprecated.
>> > 
>> > That would be news to me. Even if `scope obj = new MyClass;` 
>> > got deprecated, there are library solutions.
>> Library solution is not a *language construct*. You know what? 
>> Let's deprecate 'struct'. I bet that we can build a library 
>> solution instead. Too many keywords, 'switch' can be reduced 
>> to a library solution using just 'if's.
> Why does it have to be a language construct? Please explain.

Because library solutions are workarounds and don't highlight any 
language design commitment. Using library solutions, I can make D 
look like Brainfuck if I insist. But this doesn't mean that D is 
Brainfuck. Keep in mind that the original question was why I 
consider OOP a second hand citizen in D language. I fact the 
outcome of the discussion does nothing else than strongly support 
my opinion: I need a library solution to do OOP in D.

>> I'm starting to understand Chris.
> If by "understand Chris" you mean "D leadership sucks because 
> their opinion differs from mine", then sure.

No, no, no. I understand Chris' frustration. I don't want the 
management to agree with me. I want the management to not 
simulate any interest in my opinion. Because we loose both 
valuable time: me explaining the zillionth time the same thing 
and management disagreeing.

> Seriously, people need to get a grip here.  It's one thing to 
> ask for more communication from the leadership, which IMO is a 
> valid complaint because people need to know where the 
> leadership stands w.r.t. various issues.  It's totally a 
> different thing to react with negativity when the leadership's 
> stance differs from yours.  Why should they be forced to adopt 
> your opinion instead of their own?  It's not as though you're 
> paying them to do what you want. And after all, it's *their* 
> project not yours.
> At the very least, you could explain your position and why you 
> think your way is better.

I explained it too many times in too many posts during the last 7 
years. I won't repeat myself.

> But if you've already done that and the leadership still does 
> not agree, then you have two choices: (1) swallow your pride 
> and accept the leadership's decision, or (2) understand that D 
> is not your pet project and since it doesn't match what you 
> want, perhaps you'll be happier somewhere else.

Already choose (1). That's the difference between me an Chris. 
Probably he is younger, I'm too old to have any pride :)

> I seriously don't understand why people continue staying around 
> poisoning the well when it's clear that things will likely 
> *never* go their way, and that they would be much happier 
> elsewhere.  If you don't like the way things are going, and 
> speaking up didn't convince anybody, then well, this is an open 
> source project, fork the code and do it your way. See if it 
> works out better. Maybe once you've garnered a larger following 
> from your great ideas, you can come back with solid proof that 
> your way is better, and then the leadership might be convinced 
> to go that way too.  Or just give up and realize D is not for 
> you, and go join the Rust community or something.
> But why stay around just for the sake of complaining?  I mean, 
> personally I don't particularly like Java, but I don't go 
> sticking my nose in the Java forums and badmouth Java 
> leadership and complain about why Java sucks and why everyone 
> else is stupid because they think Java is great.  Well hello, 
> they are on the Java forums *because* they think Java is great, 
> so if I don't agree with them, then it's time to move on to 
> something else (like D :-P) where I'll be much happier.  
> There's really no reason to stick around if you're really that 
> unhappy with the way things are going.
> T

I am not complaining, I sincerely don't care anymore. But if I 
see that there is some hope, I will not hesitate to spice things 
up. Because, believe it or not, I like D, but I don't like how D 
transformed in the last years.

In fact, I stopped complaining 2 years ago when my involvement in 
D stopped also. I just came back these day because dub/dmd fucked 
up again my decimal library and entered in the forums to see 
what's going on:

I reopened a bugzilla 
( and happened Atila's post.

Sorry for polluting these discussions, it will not happen again. 
See you in 2 years. Or if you miss me, fuck up my decimal library 

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