Garbage Collection for Systems Programmers

[Martyn]

On Monday, 1 April 2024 at 20:45:25 UTC, Adam Wilson wrote:
> On Monday, 1 April 2024 at 01:58:51 UTC, Lance Bachmeier wrote:
>> On Sunday, 31 March 2024 at 14:22:43 UTC, Adam wrote:
>> The first question to ask is "Does it matter one way or the 
>> other?" Since you're probably not writing the Linux kernel, 
>> even if you're engaged in 'systems programming', the answer is 
>> quite often no. If the answer is yes, the second question to 
>> ask is "Does it matter enough?"
>>
>> I dislike these debates because most of those arguing against 
>> the GC are insufficiently informed to engage in a worthwhile 
>> debate. Many of them don't even understand that you can do 
>> things with a programming language other than write video 
>> games.
>
> The discourse around the GC has gotten so ridiculous that I 
> have seriously considered asking Walter to declare that "If you 
> want to create an OS or Video Game, consider a different 
> language."
>
> OS/Games is actually a fairly uncommon use of D, if you look at 
> what the people who aren't whining endlessly about the GC are 
> actually doing with it.
>
> Personally, I blame the OS/Game crowd for single-handedly 
> keeping D out of the web service space for the past *decade* 
> because, instead of improving the GC to the point that 
> long-running processes are possible, we've built a mountain of 
> (mis)features designed to assuage their demands. I maintain 
> that this was probably the second biggest mistake in D's 
> history.
>
> We need to accept a fact that I learned at DConf 2017, the 
> no-GC crowd will not be silenced until the GC is removed from 
> the language. However, Walter has said the GC is here to stay. 
> Therefore, the no-GC crowd will never be silenced. We've given 
> them a plethora of tools to work without the GC. It is time 
> that we stopped giving them so much our time. We have bigger 
> problems to solve.

I am sure some people on this forum would refer me as "one of 
them" - and, by default, someone that "wants control of memory" 
being labeled as ignorant. That makes me [the guy in the 
middle](https://assets.bitbashing.io/images/just-use-gc.jpg), 
right?

I think some people are viewing this as black or white. You love 
the GC or you hate it. This isn't some kind of religious group. 
Those that might categorize me as some OOP/GC hater, I could say 
the same for those that want to force the GC it on me.

I have D programs on servers. Some using a rich set of 
features... shock.. uses the GC. For others, they are written in 
BetterC.

What we have to remember is, in my opinion, is the Dlang is a 
unique programming language. Dlang has the opportunity of winning 
over many different sections of programmers. This is something 
other languages, especially higher level ones, do not have. If 
you want to go down the route of "but if you want to write a game 
or OS... this is not for you" seems like you are enforcing what 
**you want** from D and excluding users/developers who need to 
solve other problems. It isn't just you, but others who are web 
guys or app guys are happy to join in and agree.

I am not being bitter about it. The core team behind D are free 
to push whatever goals they wish for the language. If you want to 
go the route of "no gamers or OS guys" then make it clear. People 
are going to be argumentative about it on forums and it is not 
because "no-GC crowd will never be silenced" -- it is because 
people on this forum **really care** about the D programming 
language. I will agree that some people could word their points 
of view more professionally (and more respecfully of others) -- 
but you can tell that a number of members on this forum would 
take a bullet for D.

State the goals of D. Some people will dislike it and create 
posts about it but at the end, it comes down to 2 choices:-

1) Accept the goals and keep using D, or
2) Accept defeat and move to another language.

Maybe there is truth behind it. Is D the language for gamers or 
OS'ers? With Rust entering the Linux and Windows Kernel space... 
and we have game-specific languages like Odin or Jai... maybe D 
is not the right choice for these afterall. If the Non-GC guys 
are that much of a burden, maybe a chat with Walter should happen 
sooner than later.