We are forking D

[H. S. Teoh]

On Tue, Jan 09, 2024 at 11:14:56PM +0000, Paolo Invernizzi via Digitalmars-d wrote:
[...]
> A fork can revitalise D, as Rust, and the flourishing of other new
> modern languages shock C++ , I think all the best about Adam, he is
> able to produce an incredible amount of code that actually DO the job.
> I will not bet against the failure of OpenD, ironically Adam is VERY
> pragmatic.

If anyone hasn't tried out Adam's arsd.* libs yet, I'd highly recommend
trying them out.  Especially check out arsd.jni, which is so awesome it
almost makes working with Java palatable to me again. As far as I'm
concerned, Adam could well be the D library analogue of Kenji.  If
anybody can make a D fork succeed, he'd be one of the prime candidates.
Personally I don't always agree with him, but there's no arguing with
his results.


[...]
> The D programming language does not need another Kenji event. D can't
> loose talented contributors just for the sake of "formatting": that
> was an incredible fool example of total nonsense, and the net loss for
> the community was terribly hight.

The loss of Kenji was one of untold proportions.  He was one of the
major drivers of D development back in the day -- we'd be discussing
about some hypothetical feature in the forums, debating the pros and
cons, and Kenji would suddenly pop up with an implementation that
addressed all concerns, had a neat, consistent design, and worked as
expected.  It was phenomenal.  D wouldn't be halfway where it is today
without him. He literally contributed about 1/2 of the entire dmd
codebase when he was still with us.

To lose such a major contributor over some petty squabble about
formatting is, well, I'm at a loss of words for it.  If one can't see
this tragic catastrophe for what it is, then I really don't know what
else to say, it's a lost cause.


> Pragmatically, again, D core members need to sit down (hopefully in
> front of a good beer!) and find an escape path. My humble suggestion,
> from what I see and I've seen in the past.
> 
> Literally NOBODY is on DIP 1027 camp. This means that EVERYONE
> sometimes is wrong, also if not convinced at all. There should be a
> mechanism that triggers in that case: “Logic clearly dictates that the
> needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.", How am I to
> contradict Spock? With this mechanism in place, DIP DIP1036e should be
> merged. Yes, the same happened with safe by default.

Exactly. It's the same pattern repeated over and over throughout the
years.  It has not changed one bit.  If it was once, we could call it a
mistake.  If it was twice, we could blame it on some thing or another.
But now that it has happened repeatedly for more than 10 years, without
fail, even the most stubborn among has to admit that something isn't
going right, and it's fundamental.  We should not fool ourselves any
longer. D isn't going to get past this blockade until something radical
changes.

It's not a question of decisions that I don't like or that didn't go my
way, or anybody else's way.  Many design decisions could go either way,
there's always pros and cons and sometimes you just have to arbitrarily
pick one way or the other, and no matter which choice you make, somebody
will be unhappy. That's expected, and that's not the problem here.  The
problem here is the persistent, recurring, and consistent act of
rejecting something *without having bothered to understand what it was
in the first place*, topped up with the outright unwillingness to be
made to understand.  I've been trying not to use the word disrespect
directly, but there is really no nice way to put this.  Just read the
current discussion on DIP1036e in the other thread, it's there for all
to see.  As long as this continues, we're not getting past this
blockade.  That's all there is to it.

This is why I'm extremely interested in this fork, even if I don't
always agree with Adam's motivations and decisions.  This could be the
event that will shake things up enough to break D through the blockade.
It would be the biggest tragedy if D continues to languish and never
reach its full potential.  It's no longer just about DIP1036e, or safe
by default (which failed over a seriously minor quibble, totally
disproportionate to the benefit that we would have reaped had the
leadership relented on that minor point), or a whole bunch of other
technical issues.  What's at stake is the long-term viability of D.

I've said before and I say again: this issue here is not technical, it's
social.  Until something changes on that front, D is going to be stuck
behind that blockade indefinitely.  OTOH, maybe that will be for the
best. Let the current D continue to stagnate, and let Adam's fork
thrive.  Time will prove which way was the right way forward.  A radical
change must happen one way or another; the status quo cannot continue
anymore.


> Also, add a third person to the Walter/Atila duo, a member of the
> community with better focus and understanding about the attitude of
> the community, but also a strong tech view of D.

What we sorely lack is a person with better social skills than your
typical average D geek (including yours truly -- I do not exclude myself
from disqualification).  In spite of all our hopes to the contrary, not
every problem can be solved with technical means; that's just not how
things work in real life.  Somebody in the leadership needs to have the
social skills to interact with the community, and interact successfully,
otherwise this stalemate will only be prolonged.  Like it or not, that's
just the harsh reality we have to face.


> My ideal choice would be Steven (but hey, maybe Steven is horrified by
> the idea), as Mike is already doing a great job in his role.
[...]

If Steven would be nominated, I'd support him. ;-)

OTOH, based on the reactions I'm observing on this thread, the chances
of a breakthrough are rather low, even if Steven were to be added.  In
spite of myself I'm seeing Adam's fork as being the more promising
alternative at present.  Time will tell where it will lead.


T

-- 
People tell me that I'm paranoid, but they're just out to get me.