Had another 48hr game jam this weekend...

[Manu]

On 1 September 2013 23:18, Andrej Mitrovic <andrej.mitrovich at gmail.com>wrote:

> On 9/1/13, Manu <turkeyman at gmail.com> wrote:
> > ** If you want to link against any other libraries.
>
> Only if you want to do it statically, but you don't need to mess with
> COFF for DLLs, most of these libs you've listed can build either
> statically or as a DLL.
>

You mean dynamically loading DLL's, and finding/hooking up the symbols
manually?

On 9/1/13, Manu <turkeyman at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Most of who? The D devs? You all reject auto-complete and debuggers?
> > How do you get any work done?
>
> Well, we do get things done:
>
> http://www.ohloh.net/p/dmd/commits/summary
> http://www.ohloh.net/p/libphobos/commits/summary


I was joking.

On 9/1/13, Manu <turkeyman at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>    - Deprecate DMD makefiles. Seriously! Insist that contributors use
> the
> >>> IDE bindings to work on DMD.
> >>
> >> Not gonna happen.
> >>
> >
> > Reconsider.
>
> How is deprecating makefiles easier than making whatever IDE that
> you're using just call a 'make' command when you click a button? Even
> VS comes with nmake and friends.
>

It's basically a hack though. It interferes with the dependency chain, and
rebuild efficiency. Has some other weird side-effects too.
But even it it did to that, the experience that they would be confronted
with is broken auto-completion, and debugging issues.
It's pretty shit that it stands to end-users to report bugs of this kind,
when the devs working with this code every single day could catch
loads/most of the common ones themselves just by working in the end-user
environment for a while.

On 9/1/13, Manu <turkeyman at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Slowing us down won't help anyone.
> >
> > I'd argue that it would; inflicting the pain of trying to be a
> productive D
> > user on the developers will certainly highlight the importance of the
> > issue.
>
> It would only make people leave the community, just like Tomasz
> Stachowiak (h3r3tic) left, and now I've learned Michel Fortin is also
> not using D anymore.
>

I think this argues my point for me...
This stuff should be top priority!

Anyway it's not like we're not aware of the issues, these things are
> brought up in the newsgroups every other day. But the only way to fix
> the situation is: file bugs, contribute with pull requests.
>

Or enforce that the devs actually experience the end-user experience. Then
they'll know what the problems actually are, have a realistic perspective
of their productivity impact, and might take them more seriously.
I think it would have a tendency to change the perceived priority.

On 9/1/13, Manu <turkeyman at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm really don't like bugzilla as an end-user, but I'm not performing
> > searching actions.
> > As a reporter, I find it's needless friction between me and reporting
> bugs,
> > and I consequently report perhaps half as many bugs as I would otherwise,
>
> See I don't understand this. You want everyone to work on the things
> you're most interested in (IDEs), but you can't bother reporting bugs.
>

I'm just saying it how it is, or at least, how it was perceived in this
instance by a room full of new D users, all professionals, mostly senior or
lead programmers with some sway in their companies.
None of the others could be bothered creating yet-another-webpage-account
to log bugs they encountered. I suggested they do so a few times. I was
promptly ignored.
It's just that manually logging in to non-ajax websites is so last decade.
People are growing very weary of creating and managing accounts on every
website they visit.

I definitely feel this is a worthwhile weekend's experience to share. Take
it or leave it.

> Are you saying I should have told everyone to set up their machines before
> > coming?
>
> Well look, you've obviously used D in a 64bit environment (so you've
> had to set this up yourself at least once), so I don't understand how
> you've managed to lose 6 hours on it. :)
>

Actually, previous times I've used it, it did 'just work'. This time it
didn't. I was surprised (and a tad embarrassed).

About 6 hours was lost trying to work out what the problems were, then
configuring it on everyones machines, then making sure everyone had
Visual-D, link issues against the libs we were using, some issues with the
particular version of the MS CRT that DMD seemed to really want to link and
external libs wanting a different CRT (I couldn't find how to configure it
for other CRT's), then Mono-D on the non-windows machines, then OSX issues;
GDC was the first compiler that user found, Mono-D had problems, eventually
gave up and switched to DMD... trying to convince people that it would be
better in the long run ;)

It's definitely not a 1-click install and get to work.
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